Two Headed Girl
Episode 37 artwork
Episode 37 · July 1, 2022 · 01:03:25

37. Heartstopper=Heartwarming

This weekJoin Quinn and Mattie as they discuss the sweetest gay show currently on tv- Heartstopper.
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Show notes

Show Notes


Scene Clips

  • Nick and Charlie in the snow:YouTube
  • Charlie and Nick Party Kiss: YouTube
  • Nick comes out to his mom: YouTube
  • Tara and Darcy Party Kiss: YouTube


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Guest and Editor: Quinn Rose 

Music by: Seth Boyer

Art by: Kevin Budnik and Kara Fagan 

Friend of the pod: Sydney Anderson 

Transcript

Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakes

MattieHey everyone. By now it's more than likely you've heard that in the U.S., Roe v. Wade has been overturned by the Supreme Court, stripping citizens of the right to have illegal abortion. This wasn't a surprise, but it is still devastating. We encourage you to support abortion funds any way you can. In the show notes, we will link to the Midwest Abortion Coalition, which helps people get the health care they need if it's been outlawed in their state. Chicago is a safe haven for abortions, and we won't let that change anytime soon.

This is a pretty lighthearted episode, which I think we could all use during this time as a welcome distraction. Hang in there, friends.

Hi, I'm Mattie Cox, and today on Two Headed Girl, we have a special guest who has been here quite a few times before. Hello! There you go. I was like, say hello. Who are you?

QuinnI'm Quinn Rose. I am a repeat guest on this podcast, and I also have the distinct pleasure of often editing this podcast. And so I'm thrilled to be back on the side of the mic.

MattieYeah, I'm so glad you're here. I've realized that you've done like 90% of the queer media episodes with me. And it's like just been us. So I was like, no, Alex, you can't come. It's just me and Quinn this time. so today we are going to be talking about the tv show on netflix that if you're queer at all i'm sure you've heard about even if you haven't seen it and it is called heartstopper it's based off of graphic novels this will be have spoilers for the whole series it's only eight episodes and

they're like 30 minutes long each so go watch it come back and then listen to us talk about this awesome queer show. So excited to talk about this. I mean, I told you, but I binged it in two days because it's just so adorable. It's so adorable. I love it so much. And I'm definitely going to watch it again, maybe not as many times as you, but...

QuinnOkay, no one's allowed to make fun of me for this because other people on the internet are way more obsessed with this show than I am. But I watched it, I think, four times. I watched it all the way through by myself twice and then once not totally all the way through but I watched like most of it but I skipped around a little bit when I was like I don't really care about this scene but it's not that long so there weren't that many scenes that I skipped and then I then I watched it with my partner in front of the show Sydney and so I think that makes it basically four

times and uh have you read all the graphic novels yet or yes I have the graphic novel series is still ongoing. I don't know when the fifth one's due to come out, but there are four that are out right now. And I did read all of them after watching the show a couple times. So the show is based off the graphic novels, right? The graphic novels came first. Yes. The show roughly follows the plot from the first two graphic novels. And I say roughly, it's actually like it includes almost everything that's in the graphic novels. There's very little they cut, but they expanded on a lot

from those two volumes.

MattieThat's awesome. I have to check them out. I just haven't had time because I've been taking care of Alex and their broken foot, as I'm sure many of you have heard on Dubai Friday.

QuinnPoor Alex.

MattieYeah, it's been a journey, but that means we've had more time to watch TV and got to enjoy this show. As you are the experts, you get to steer the ship on this one because you have seen it many more times than I.

Quinnso well I want to ask you when did you hear about the show was it from me or had you heard about it

Mattiebefore so it's embarrassing I saw it you know how when you open Netflix it like suggests television and it was definitely the first show on there I read the summary and I added it to my queue but I didn't decide to watch it until after we went and got coffee and you told me that it was really good

Quinnso this show basically took over queer tiktok the second it came out and i wasn't really going to watch it i was familiar with the graphic novel already like i had heard about it as being like this great queer teen graphic novel and so it's on my list to get around to eventually the show was coming out and i was like i don't know whatever but then i kept getting more and more tiktoks about it because sometimes tiktok decides i've seen a television show and i can't convince that I haven't seen this television show. And I saw someone posted a clip from this show.

And it is the scene where Charlie has fallen asleep on the couch. And Nick is trying to think about whether or not he wants to hold hands with him. And there's a little moment of magical realism where these gold sparks come up from his hands when he's thinking about taking Charlie's hand. And I was like, that's it. I'm watching this show. So that was literally my first exposure to Heartstopper in a serious way.

MattieSo then you discovered it through TikTok because you're on like BookTok?

QuinnYeah, I think it was mostly because most of my TikTok is like books and gay people. And so they were like, well, have we got the show for you?

MattieYeah, pretty much. That's probably why I didn't see it because mine is queer people and dogs.

QuinnSo hey, there's a dog in the show, too.

MattieThere is. I loved her. She was so cute. one of the one of the things in the top of my notes that you mentioned is I love the little like comic book like nods to the graphic novel they do where they like animate little like leaves or hearts or there's like little like sparks flying between them like it's so cute it gives me Scott Pilgrim vibes very much yeah yeah and in like the most wholesome way though it's like

Quinnwhere Scott Pilgrim is all video games and irony. Heartstopper is comics and earnestness.

MattieIt's I think after like every episode, because I watched it with Alex. Alex was just like, it's so sweet and precious. I'm just waiting for it to break my heart. And only one episode broke our heart and made us sad. And then we were only sad for like 10 minutes. So I want to if anyone

Quinnis still listening who has not seen Heartstopper, I'm going to give a brief synopsis slash pitch to watch it before we like really get into the plot of this show. So the premise is it's a British teen show. And our main character is Charlie, who is, I don't know how grades work in Britain. He's a year 10. I think that's a sophomore. I'm not sure. And he is gay. You find out pretty early that he He was bullied the previous year, but teachers and adults ended up intervening and preventing

a lot of the bullying from continuing slash a lot of those kids graduated. So he's like starting a new term at school, very hopeful. You find out he's got the secret boyfriend that he's seeing on the down low, but maybe things aren't so great there. He walks in the first day of term and he's got a new seat sitting next to rugby king Nick Nelson. There's a lot of interaction between Charlie and his friends and trying to figure out what Nick's deal is and what his sexuality is as they continue to bond and grow closer and closer platonically and then maybe more. It happens pretty early. This is a love story.

And there's a lot of interpersonal conflict between this group of friends, which is primarily a queer group of friends, which I'm sure we're going to talk so much about the representation of this show. It's really just next level. But fundamentally, as I think we've already made clear. It is such a sweet and hopeful and lovely show that it's not here to tear you down. It is here to be a very sweet teen rom-com that is at once a semi-realistic look at being a queer

teenager and some of the struggles that can come with that while not falling into deep traps of hopelessness or despair and really leaving you with a hopeful message at every turn.

MattieRight. There's, I mean, one of the big things that stands out is that it's not a tragedy. Like it's so far away from like, a queer person dying, like we're used to, or at least I'm old. So that's what I'm used to in television. But I feel like a lot of us are used to that, like prior to the past couple years being the narrative is that someone's going to die, someone's going to get broken up with, someone's going to get, you know, all of the terrible things that happen to queer people. and that this is the this is the opposite like there's definitely things that tug at your heart

Quinnstrings but there's no tragedy so no absolutely not it is just it's a sweet and sometimes even like cheesy teen show but it's about queer people and they get to have silly fights and fall in love

Mattieand be teenagers i wish so much that something like this existed uh back when i was a teenager because all I had was Glee. And that was not a good representation. The only queer show other than Buffy, which had a very, very limited amount of queer in it, was Glee.

QuinnWow, when are we going to do the queer media episode about Glee?

MattieThis is so far from Glee. I have a question that I should have researched this. I don't actually know. Was the creator or any of the writers, were they queer?

QuinnYes. So the creator of Heartstopper who wrote all of the graphic, wrote and illustrated all the graphic novels and who then wrote the television show is Alice Osman. And Alice is aromantic, asexual and non-binary and uses she and they pronouns. And so I think this really speaks to the story is like a queer story written by a queer person. And also, they're definitely very passionate about asexual representation. A lot of their they have a lot of books. And I understand that several of them very specifically focus on asexual characters. And she even tweeted something that was like, when we get season two of Heartstopper, I have big plans, big asexual plans.

MattieI'm definitely gonna follow her Twitter because I'm so excited for season two and I'm definitely gonna read the graphic novels in between that time uh but I mean obviously the like the first thing that stood out so so like Nick and Charlie are the main couple uh Nick is the rugby player Charlie is the out uh gay as you mentioned and like the first thing that stuck out to me is that I mean, obviously, it's kind of like a little queer friend group versus jocks. So even though

the story follows, like, Nick is a jock, and all his friends are like, bros. What's the equivalent

Quinnof a bro in England? I don't know. Lads. They call them lads a lot. There you go. Are lads.

MattieAnd they're all like, tough rugby players. And Charlie and his friends are like, the like, nerdy artsy like queers but it didn't feel like stereotypical to me you know I mean lots of Nick's rugby friends were definitely stereotypical jocks but like the story didn't seem like oh of course like the nerdy kid changes for the jock because that's like not really what happens they don't change their personalities for one another so like even though the premise it you know sounds

Like, I mean, it is just a little, like, teen rom-com, but, like, it's not done in a lazy or predictable way at all, I don't think. Like, obviously, it's predictable they're going to get together, but, like, the way their relationships are, like, grow and are structured are, I think, different than most teen dramas. Does that make sense?

QuinnYeah, it feels more realistic to me in that way, because you don't have the over exaggerated clicks that a lot of teen movies and TV shows have. And I don't know how American of a phenomena that is, because I do think that's probably more pronounced in American media than other countries. But there's a way to tell the story where it's like, oh, Nick's the rugby guy and Charlie's the drummer boy and how their friends hate each other and they can never be together because of all this drama.

But that's really not what happens. Like Charlie joins the rugby team because they need someone who can run fast. And even though it's not like his thing, it's fine because it's an extracurricular activity and people just join those. And you don't there is conflict between the friend groups, but it's never really about like the stereotypes or cliches. They move past that really quickly in a show. And it's really just about the individual people and how they're treating each other.

MattieYeah. And I think that's one thing that I really liked about it is Alex and I kept saying to one another, like, it's so realistic. And you don't see that with a lot of teen shows. And then I had to Google how old they were. And they're all actually teenagers playing teenagers. And I think maybe that helps a little bit.

QuinnYeah, they totally are. There's a fun behind the scenes fact. While season one was like came out and they were doing all this heavy promotion for it. Joe Locke, who plays Charlie, was like, had to be taking his A-levels. And so he was actively posting about how he was absolutely going to fail his A-levels because he was spending all this time. because it was so popular he was spending all his time like promoting it and being on tiktok and talking to people and all this stuff and he's like not gonna do well guys he could just it's

Mattiefine he could just pay his way in he'll he'll just pay him off and he'll be good but i do love

Quinni mean just on that note about realism as well the evolution of nick and charlie's relationship and i mean this is the core of the show so i feel like we could talk about this forever but just to open up that conversation it just feels so real that they fall in love right and i guess in the show technically they don't say i love you because they're saving that for future seasons i assume but it's so realistic that they fall for each other because they become good friends they

bond you see them laughing you see that they're texting each other all night like it's just a very it's not just like oh we fall for each other right away or it's not like we have this antagonistic relationship and then there's a sudden turn of attract like no if they're building a genuine platonic foundation that transforms into a romantic relationship when they realize or like when charlie's been attracted to them all time and nick realizes that he's attracted to charlie

Mattieand then they build off of that together yeah i mean i was gonna uh i would say that charlie was probably hoping it was it would be something more from the beginning but like it's not like he pressured like he had a crush on him but he i believe they both wanted to be like friends first like of course he was crushing on him but i don't think it was like i mean obviously it wasn't like yes i'm going to make him like me you know oh god yeah that way i mean a lot of shows do that you know there's nothing insidious about it it feels like a genuine high school crush and

one of the things that i think makes it a really realistic high school crush is because they keep going why are we like this and they keep like having like awkward moments and like apologizing to one another a bunch and like stopping when they're going to do something cute like hold hands or something like that and it's not even like yes sometimes it's about like not wanting attention like not wanting to be out in public because nick nick isn't out yet and Charlie is and he doesn't want to, you know, bring attention to them. But it's also like the palpable,

like awkward teenage romance is just like, I remember being 15 and being so awkward of trying to like hug someone or hold their hand. And like, I feel like that's the main emotion that comes

Quinnthrough. No, they so captured the awkwardness of being a teenager, like this point when they're like oh you like me and he's like why has that not been established and then they both have to confirm out loud they like each other even though they're clearly like obsessed with each other already at this point i really like you you like me wasn't that obvious do you like me yes obviously why are we like this it's that's so true being a teenager is horrible

it's so everything is so confusing all the time you second guess yourself all the time oh my gosh yeah and also as you just mentioned a big part of the show is that charlie is out and nick is not and Nick is figuring out that he is not straight for the first time in his life and Nick's own individual journey is such an incredible thing in this show but there's also I'm not sure I've ever seen a storyline in a tv show like this depicted in this particular way where one person

is out and the other person isn't but instead of it being like the driving tension of their relationship it's something that both parties are working on are respectful of and are trying to figure out together rather than it being what's pulling them apart i feel like i should briefly

Mattiemention that uh charlie's first like boyfriend i guess even though he doesn't really call him that named ben uh is someone he meets uh through band and he will like make out with charlie but they like hide it and he doesn't want anyone to know and he treats charlie like garbage and he is uh ben is not out at all and his relationship with nick seems like it might go that way but because they communicate about it so well and and are like so understanding it's not like that at all he

charlie like gives nick the space to figure it out all while they are together as opposed to like

Quinnit being a shameful thing. Yeah. And it creates this tension in their relationship that is earned rather than just being like two people not communicating well. Like Charlie is so self-conscious about not giving anything away that it makes Nick feel bad about it. But he's not doing anything. Neither of them are doing anything wrong and they don't want anyone to feel bad. But it creates this more realistic tension in their relationship as they're struggling to figure this out and then they have multiple conversations just like direct conversations

about it where charlie even says like what you're doing is nothing like what ben is doing because you respect me as a person which is the issue the issue is not you figuring out your sexuality

Mattieexactly and that that is so important like i i like that they i i like that they spelled it out too i wanted to say they didn't need to but like just watching the characters like you know on tv shows you're like if the characters just talked to each other this wouldn't be an issue yeah and that's the thing is these characters actually talk to each other they they really do even when they have fights they talk it out later exactly and and even if they like avoid each other for a little

bit it's not like a it's a truly like earnest way i feel like you would avoid someone that you didn't know if you were in a relationship with or if they reciprocated your feelings. I don't it's not like played up for extra drama where it's like a four episode arc of them like just not communicating.

QuinnEmotional intelligence. Who would have thought? And as I mentioned a minute ago, they had their relationship plot line together and then both of them have their own arcs throughout the show. And Nick's arc is primarily about figuring out his sexuality. and I mean you just publicly released the bisexual representation episode but this is a real banner tv show for bisexual representation this is like a landmark because we have this boy who

realizes that he is attracted to a male friend who goes home and googles a lot about it and cries which is it's such a personal attack who watches Pirates of the Caribbean and has bi panic another personal attack the am i gay quiz the am i gay quiz and then once he starts to figure it out uses the word bisexual repeatedly to describe himself and to clarify when it is questioned that he is in fact bisexual and that it's a specific label that he feels belongs to him

Mattieand he is proud to identify with it which is very rare it literally uh made me tear up and it's very hard for me to cry because of testosterone so oh i i wish there had been positive by representation like that like it was mind-blowing i definitely thought i i did not think it was going to go in that direction like i didn't think he would come out as bisexual or like repeatedly use the word i thought he would uh struggle with that more and then when he comes out to his mom who is the queen

from whatchamacallit

Quinnthe crown

MattieI was just calling her the queen yes from the crown thank you and when he comes out as bisexual to her he's like if you know what that means and she just like laughs and she's like yes I'm not from like the 18th century or something

Quinnthat was so funny

Mattieit was wonderful

Quinnshout out to Olivia Colman being in this show she literally only has scenes with Nick because she's his mom I think she was on set for 48 hours, but she knocked it out of the park every scene.

MattieYeah, she was wonderful. Like, that's the kind of supportive mom I want to see. Actually, both of their parents, Charlie's dad is also, like, really supportive.

Speaker AAnd me and Charlie, we're going out. and I just wanted you to know.

Speaker BOh, baby. Oh, thank you for telling me. I'm sorry if I ever made you feel like you couldn't tell me that.

QuinnIt makes me tear up because it's just the perfect response and the comfort to this kid, and it's what any kid would want coming out to their parent.

MattieAnd that's another place where the show steers away from tragedy. Like, it's not this horrible, you're going to get kicked out of the house, we don't accept you thing. And like, just to also like go in that direction and be openly bisexual. And I don't know, it was just, it was so heartwarming. Also, to see teenage boys, like, openly cry about their emotions and be in touch with their feelings. Like, what is that even? Where is all this positive representation and masculinity coming from?

QuinnI know. The other two big stepping stones on his bisexual awakening slash journey is, one, watching vloggers talk about being bisexual. Also relatable.

I've never had a unique experience. um and then the other one is talking to his friends tara and darcy and these are the local lesbians um or what do they call them token lesbians yeah what do they call themselves you've befriended the school lesbians is what they said yeah so in in the show there's a boy school and a girl school because britain i guess but they're like they're like across the street from each other and they do extra some extracurriculars together i guess um but tara and Darcy are these two teenagers who are dating and they befriend Elle, who is another one of our main

characters. They have been dating for a little while. One of them has been out for years and the other one comes out as dating her girlfriend in the show. And there's a little bit of a backstory with them because Nick and Tara kissed once at a party when they were 13. And so some of his friends are like, oh, you know, do you like Tara? Like we think you two should get together. and they end up having a conversation and she's like I am a lesbian and that's another big thing with language on this show is they use the word lesbian and they use it a lot and they don't treat

it like a bad word or a funny word it and it's amazing how rare that is even with a lot of like modern media I've noticed will avoid using the word lesbian and it is very uncomfortable and so

MattieI'm really glad that this show fully embraced it all the queer language it embraces is really good obviously other than when the the bullies are picking on charlie because they're they're terrible and horrible but um one of my favorite things is is when nick goes up to tara and she's like when we kissed when i uh we were 13 i thought i was gonna or i thought i was gonna date you forever i think tara system until after we kissed and it wasn't good or something like that

Quinnyeah he specifically asked her are you fully a lesbian are you bisexual and she says like no i'm definitely fully gay like kissing you made me realize i don't like boys yeah so funny um but that's one of those points where he's he that's when he's in the phase of like okay am i bisexual and he's like comparing notes with other queer people which is so fun

Mattieyeah I love how that how um I I want to say like Nick finds their own little queer group of friends

Quinnbefore Charlie does yeah or like he really I feel like he's the connecting point to help bring in sort of Tar and Darcy to help round out the group in addition to Elle who has also the friend of Tar and Darcy and was already friends with Charlie um but I think that the both of them together like really help uh bring everyone into one big group instead of what is as how says of the first episode like three people isn't a group it's just like three weirdos um or something like that but yeah really rounding out a full uh an almost exclusively

Mattiequeer friend group which is awesome also i love how when uh nick does go talk to tara while he is um trying to like suss out whether he's like bi or gay or whatever um she like kind of instantly knows like her gaydar is up and she gives him like this knowing smile and i feel like tara and darcy her girlfriend kind of like they are like the meddling queers but they are like a very nice supportive space for him like they don't pressure him to come out but they like definitely like know

Quinnsomething's up you know oh yeah especially darcy clocks him immediately um like as soon as she meets him she's like are you a charlie dating yeah and then later like she's just so excited to to be friends with more queer people um which is a very understandable feeling yeah it's it's just

Mattieit's really heartwarming and i didn't realize until or i didn't think about until i started watching this show about how homophobic it is in london like i know it's transphobic but like the like like there are so many turfs like it's it's super transphobic this is common knowledge with jk rowling and all that but i didn't think about like how homophobic it is because it takes place like currently right it takes place during 2022 i believe so it's like roughly present

day yeah and i i was like are kids really still this homophobic and and alex was like well kids are jerks but also it's london and like i didn't even think about how a detrimental like obviously it's detrimental for people to be out anywhere like kids are going to get teased but um the the fact that it's in london uh didn't even cross my mind that it would be more homophobic

Quinnthere you know what's really interesting is the one scene and where they're at harry's birthday party harry is our homophobic bully and nick tells harry off and he says harry you're being homophobic um when he's being mean to charlie and harry is like not okay at nick accusing him of this he's like come on it's just banter i'm not going to do british accent but like it's just banter the lads can see it's banter and he's really not okay with being called homophobic

even though he's being extremely homophobic and it only escalates through the show and i did find that a very interesting um marker of it being present day of that like even though this kid is a homophobic bully he doesn't want to be called that because he knows that's not what he's supposed to be doing and so it's a very interesting nuance that i think i think that really rang true to me it's like this kid gets away with so much because no one's calling him on it and the second someone called him on it, he needed to go and like clear his name, quote unquote, by trying to resolve

things because he's like, no, I can't have people saying I'm homophobic, even though he's like

Mattierunning around being horrible. I think that also relates to what you were saying about language, because instead of just calling him a bully and telling him to stop bullying, like they outwardly call him homophobic, which I feel like in shows like Glee or stuff, they would just be like, oh, you're being a bully, like stop picking on people. They wouldn't be like, no, this is what

Quinnyou are you are homophobic well in glee they're all minorities they're in the glee club anyway i want to come back to the party um but i did want to explain tau and l first because now i've brought l up a couple times so l is one of charlie's friends at the start of the show and she is trans and so at the start of this new term that the show opens with she has just been able to transfer into the girls school across the street um which is great for her obviously on on

many levels but it's hard because she doesn't have any friends there um and so she spends a couple episodes not really having friends at the girls school until she gets adopted by tara and darcy and that ends up being really wonderful um and then back at the boys school we are left with charlie tau who is charlie's best friend and is the token straight friend of this friend group and a jerk oh well let's get to town in a second and then we also have isaac who's the most minor

character of like the teen friend group he's very quiet he reads a lot alice has said that he is asexual and he's going to get a bigger plot line the next season he's also the only character for the main friend group that isn't in the graphic novels he replaced a different character that was there because that character is the main character of one of alice's other books so they're hoping that they'll be able to adapt that book um in another property so lots of behind the scenes things going on yeah Isaac's not super relevant to the plot he's kind of there as more of like

a comic relief at certain moments but I think he's going to have a bigger role in future seasons but back to Tao Tao is a controversial character

Mattieum I think my exact words for him are he is a little bitch boy

Quinnyeah i i have somewhat mixed feelings on tau i agree here's the thing i do agree with you i believe i personally described him as having a stick up his ass yeah but little bitch boy i understand his motivations but i do think that like it he goes way too far i mean he is a realistic

Mattieversion of a teenage boy who is just like I don't know if you would say he's I mean he kind of is he's kind of being a martyr uh like he's just like so pouty and just like I don't know doesn't want anyone else to be happy if he can't be happy almost um and like feels things are slipping away And how I said, like, Nick and Charlie are so open and express their emotions so well, and they don't have that, like, hiding things from each other, not talking or resolving things. Tao is the exact opposite.

Quinnit yeah so the deal with chow is he has two big concerns and one is that his friend group is falling apart and people are making other friends and not hanging out with him and he's very insecure about it and the other part is that he's really worried about charlie getting picked on because he's hanging out with these rugby guys now and to be fair the second point ends up being a very valid concern because Charlie is somewhat getting bullied by these rugby boys um the first point is

I think the much less sympathetic concern yeah because he's an insecure teenager that's just redundant all teenagers from secure and this is how his insecurity manifests is in terms of his friend group because he values his friend group so highly and like Elle's gone to another school and now Charlie's made new friends that he's hanging out with all the time. And I totally get that, but he does take it too far. He is really mad about stuff that he does not have to be really mad at. And the worst thing, in my opinion, that he does in the whole show,

I think for the most part, he's just annoying. But then in the second to last episode, he gets into a physical fight with Harry, who's the bully. And then when Charlie and Nick show up and break up the fight, Tao yells at him this is all your fault to Charlie which and then in the next episode Tao explains to Nick that Charlie feels like his own existence is an inconvenience and that he is like really horribly insecure in all these ways and it's like okay if you knew all of that why

did you shout such a triggering thing at him and here's the thing I really don't like Tao but I

Mattiealso think it like he is written like a like a douchey teenage boy like there are teenage boys that are that insecure and pick on people that way do i like him as a character no is his character

Quinnrealistic definitely i have faith in tau getting better the next season because another big point of conflict in the first season is that tau is the last person to find out that nick and charlie are dating isaac kind of finds out by accident right away and they tell tara and darcy and then and then they tell Elle and Tao does not find out until almost the end of the season when Elle actually tells him and this is actually a departure from the graphic novel Tao doesn't even find out until like the third graphic novel which is past the point of the show I don't blame

them because he has been a jerk I wouldn't tell him my secrets either well that's the thing so in the book I don't know if they'll talk about this at all in the show so in the book the reason that they don't tell him is because they think that tau might have accidentally outed charlie just because tau is like just like an overshare and talks loudly and like not even necessarily an overshare on purpose but just was like having a conversation in the hallway and wasn't being careful they think that's why the school found out charlie was gay the year before which doesn't

that doesn't really get brought up in the show at all but in the book that's the reason why they choose not to tell him until way later and then in the show it's way more it seems like it's way more about this conflict that is going on between charlie and tau where tau's really insecure and then charlie doesn't know how to communicate with him because he's afraid of how tau is going to

Mattiereact because tau is just like an angry sullen teenage boy like that's just him and i think that's why i don't like his character not that there's anything wrong with being an angry sullen teenage boy but as an adult i'm just like grow up so yeah he does apologize at the end of the show

Quinnand oh he does get better yeah going back to the healthy communication like even though they they probably those two characters relationship is probably the worst communication in the show because of this conflict but they do manage to talk it out and fix things by the end yeah i mean he yeah he redeemed himself at the end of the show for sure i love how you were like this is going to be such a positive episode if we go to Tao and you were like I hate this kid

MattieI I mean I I did I had to mention it in the text because I was like I'm so ready for this to be positive this show is great and then I was like wait I hate Tao

Quinnit's also hard you know everybody else is so great and then there's Tao I mean I say that everyone else is so great except for Ben and and Harry who suck so much

Mattiei i would say that's the one like super over-the-top stereotypical thing is harry for sure like he's just like the bully you know yeah he's probably the only purely one-dimensional

Quinncharacter in this show he is just an asshole going back to tau the one very interesting thing about him besides his conflict with charlie is his budding relationship with l um i don't know why i said it like that but basically i i kind of assumed they were dating

Mattieat the start of the show and they are not me too that's the that's the vibe i got yeah but then

Quinnit's uh about halfway through the show it is established that l likes tau um and then her friends kind of try to set them up and like encourage them to date which doesn't really work um but yeah the series ends with them not dating but they have like a moment and it's kind of like ooh is something gonna happen maybe in the future i i have a logistical question does because i

Mattienever there was never an answer to this but maybe do not that it matters but do tara and darcy know

Quinnthat l is trans they do because she said that she went to the boys school oh because she never she

Mattienever like actually says oh not that she needs to but she's never like i'm out i'm trans that would be a terrible way to do it but you know what i mean i i just wasn't wasn't sure if they do But yes, you are right. They assumed correctly without having to do a clunky, clunky thing like that, which, duh, I should have figured that out.

QuinnNo, you're good. It's just it's that's the thing is like the show does it so seamlessly that it's hard to even remember that it happens because they do just like establish it and move on from there.

MattieRight, because it's not like an as-you-know-Bob. Even in, we just did that Grey's Anatomy episode, Alex and I, and we were talking about how they don't really do that with the new non-binary character, but they still have it be like a solo moment, whereas this happens in like a conversation where we're learning about Tara, Darcy, and Elle all at the same time as they're becoming friends. So it's not even like a standalone moment, which is why I think it didn't even register for me because it happened so naturally, which more shows should watch this and get a lesson in writing for sure.

Do you want to do, I think we covered all the main couples. Do you want to do like favorite episodes slash scenes?

QuinnYeah.

MattieI mean, I think this is probably an obvious one, but my favorite, like my first favorite scene was when they're Charlie and Nick are hanging out and they go like have a snowball fight and play in the snow. Because I feel like to me, that's like the start, really the catalyst of their relationship. Like, oh, yeah, like we actually like each other.

QuinnI totally agree. And they come back to that moment in the show several times. Nick gets Charlie a framed photo of them in the snow. Just in the same episode, Nick goes home and is looking at a picture, a selfie they took in the snow and like zooms in on Charlie's face. And it's like, wow, dude, that's pretty good. It's like the catalyst for their really like

Mattietheir first date, not date. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's like that would be considered

Quinntheir first date if they knew that they were going to be dating. Exactly. Their unofficial date.

MattieBecause, I mean, it's just so, like, real and pure and simple and, like, doesn't make a big deal out of it. And you can just, like, see the natural evolution of their relationship from there, you know?

QuinnAlso, Charlie wears Nick's hoodie. It's all so cute.

MattieI know. I noticed that, too. I said to Alex, oh, he's giving him his hoodie.

Quinnand then really soon after that we have the scene that i started this episode with which is nick thinking about if he wants to hold charlie's hand which is such a palpable scene um and it's one of my favorites from the show as nick i think admits to himself for the first time that he does want to hold charlie's hand and then he has to go figure out what that means for him it definitely made my

Mattiehand sweat just watching like the anxiety through the screen made my hand sweat so I felt anxious with him it was just like the the show in general if I can go on a short tangent was just like something I wish I had experienced when I was younger like I wish something like this had been on television I felt myself uh having a bit of like a Peter Pan syndrome moment where I was like yearning for something like this to have existed for my tiny little queer heart and not things like

like Twilight or Glee you know I wish there had been something like this well written and like honest and pure and subtle and and real and and it's definitely it brought back feelings that I had when I was like 12 or 13 in middle school and first started realizing that I was bisexual you know because there was really no representation it took me until I was 21 to come out as bisexual or 22 and I when I was dating uh boys I was like I'm straight and then I started just dating women

I was like oh I'm a lesbian now and and didn't even like kind of just push that into the back of my mind because the only representation I saw was really at the time was Buffy for me and and they didn't even let Willow be bisexual. So I think having something like this would have would have helped me so much. And I think that's why it makes me so emotional, because I hope it helps like a bunch of like, I hope it helps kids now accept their sexuality in a way

Quinnthat I wish I could have when I was that age. I totally agree. That is such a beautiful way to describe this and I wish I had had something like this and I'm also so happy for all of the kids and teens right now who do have this and who may realize that they're queer a lot earlier who may be comforted on that journey in a way that they wouldn't have been without this and I think this is going to have a real impact on a lot of people's lives yeah I really hope so and especially

Mattieespecially like also including that like his mom accepts him like showing that it always doesn't have to be like a scary thing because it can feel like a big moment and like a big weight on you and you can be anxious about it and think about it for a while but I feel like so often in media it's it's portrayed as your family is going to leave you like like it's a huge deal like it's something you should be scared of whereas this is like just so organic and comforting you know

QuinnYeah, there was actually a TikTok meme that sprung up around this exact idea where someone said, I didn't have Heartstopper when I was a teenager. This was my Heartstopper. And then I forget what the original was, but then people would put in something that was their version of queer representation, sometimes pretty good, sometimes really bad representation. often they were showing like stuff that wasn't even queer but like was queer baiting but it was all that they had so it's stuff like supernatural glee um people put in like youtubers like tyler

oakley that were the first queer representation that they saw um and then one person even said all of you guys are talking about this meme of like oh this was my heart stopper but this was literally nick nelson's heart stopper and they included a screenshot of tara and darcy kissing

Mattieat the party oh yeah yeah i think the party has to be my favorite episode if we're talking about

Quinnlike overall content i totally agree we've referenced this party a couple times already but basically most of this episode takes place at harry's birthday party which nick is invited to tara and darcy are invited to because they're like cool um and then nick brings charlie along and then there's a lot that happens in this episode but one of the things one of my favorite things I've ever seen on television is a song clearest blue by churches is playing and Tara and Darcy who have not been out as a couple publicly before this but have recently decided that they're

going to come out a kiss and the middle of the dance floor at this party and Nick sees them and his face is just so full of love and light and hope and that is the moment that you can see him like finally get up the courage to actually say something to Charlie and it's so beautiful

Mattieand then they kiss Charlie and Nick yes and it's so awkward it's it's so awkward but I think something that really stood out to me was how like like the consent like the gentle consent of it But like it was – and they did it without making it – like it was still romantic, you know?

Speaker CWould you go out with someone who wasn't a girl?

Speaker AI don't know. Maybe. Would you kiss someone who wasn't a girl? I don't know.

Would you kiss me?

Yeah.

Quinnthey're both terrified for different reasons and it's so awkward but also so perfect and romantic and sweet even while they're just like clearly so scared which is very very sweet for these poor

Mattielittle teenage boys it's it's so sweet and it's like you can tell i mean obviously it's because they don't want their friendship to change and change is scary and being a teenager is scary and being a gay teenager is scary um and it is just like they're so they're in one of the rooms at the party like in this country club i think like all by themselves upstairs and it's just like this quiet little moment between them together where they don't have to worry about anything else and it's just it's so wholesome it's so cute it's it's just one of the best episodes of gay tv that

i've ever seen i think because it like you said it also includes tara and darcy kissing on the dance floor and nick's like realization that oh i can i can kiss someone of the same sex and then it also includes nick's conversation with tara of like where she knows like her

Quinngate are like pings too yeah there's so much to love about this episode and then but then the very end of this episode so uh another graphic novel information this is basically the first graphic novel is up through this party um but the graphic novel actually ends with nick gets like he hears someone causing his calling his name and he just kind of runs away and panics and charlie is left devastated thinking that he's ruined everything and catastrophizing and then

that's where the graphic novel ends that's so rude there's like a preview image of like check out volume two i will say all the graphic this hard stopper is a web comic and so the web comic is actually past the point where the graphic novels are and it's available for free and anyone can go read it it's just that the graphic novels are like the more polished bound book versions of So to be fair, if someone really wanted to find out what happened next, they could read the webcomic from past that point, even when it was just the one graphic novel out. But graphic novel number two starts with Nick appearing absolutely soaked from the pouring rain at Charlie's house.

But that's where the end of episode three is, where he opens the door and Nick's there, which is a better place to end with Nick ran away. Guess everybody's sad now.

MattieI think that energy is what keeps the show going in a positive note. Like you see that we don't have to wait to see if their relationship is like completely ruined or is it going to be sad now? Are they going to be devastated? And he like then apologizes for running away and it's like I shouldn't have done that. Like that's not what I wanted to do.

QuinnThis actually leads right into one of my other favorite things from this show which is the scene where Charlie is – Nick shows up at Charlie's house. Charlie is freaking out and he's saying stuff. He's like I'm so sorry. i i know i pressured you into kissing me and i really don't want us to ruin our friendship i'm so sorry i'll never do it again but i understand if you hate me and and nick the whole time is trying to he's like charlie charlie and finally he just grabs him and kisses him because charlie is like not listening to him even as he's trying to get his attention and tell him that he's got

this all wrong um and then then the last episode of the show nick is freaking out because they've had this fight um and like there's a lot of conflict around them and charlie tried to break up with him and he is doing his own monologue about how he really cares about charlie and and he's important to him and he doesn't care about anything else and charlie interrupts him to kiss him and say like i know and i believe you now and i believe he doesn't say this as many

words but the message that he comes across this is like i do believe you that i am worth something and I do deserve this relationship, which is both such a beautiful parallel to those two monologues of freaking out, but also this full arc from like Charlie not believing that he's basically Charlie not believing that he deserves Nick or that he's bad for Nick that carries through most of the show to the resolution at the end of him being able to realize that he is worthy of Nick.

MattieIt's just, I don't have any like words for it other than it's perfect. It really is, I feel like anyway, a perfect representation not only of like having anxiety and like spiraling and like overthinking things. Like, I'm not sure if it's in that episode specifically, the one where Nick shows up at the door, like, covered in rain, where Charlie will have the thought, like, a negative thought about something that happened that it didn't really happen.

like when they were sitting on the floor in the room at the party. And it'll flashback to a scene that didn't happen where he said he didn't want to be kissed. And like Charlie pictures that and like blames himself for it or thinks it went a different way. Like he forced Nick to kiss him. And I think that's something that's so real when it comes to like doubting yourself. and anxiety and like not thinking you're worthy of something.

So to see them like talk about it and like resolve it without those like images staying in his head. And that happens a couple of times in certain instances. And I think it even, I think Nick even has one of those moments too.

QuinnYeah, yeah. I think Nick's character arc gets a lot of attention from the Heartstopper fandom because it is so easy to relate to in terms of figuring out your sexuality. But I think that Charlie's arc where he is already completely comfortable with his sexuality but has to come to terms with his self-worth in a much deeper way is in many ways subtler but also even deeper than Nick's.

And I think that having them both together where both of them need each other to help them self-actualize in this way where like they're doing this work themselves and it's work that they need to themselves but they both in their own ways like push each other to get to that point really shows how mutually beneficial their relationship is to each other right it's so

Mattiecliche but they they literally bring out the best in each other absolutely my only favorite quote

Quinnthat we haven't addressed so far in some way or another is from Imogen, who we haven't talked about at all. Imogen's just a girl who likes Nick. And then there's a B plot of her, of him kind of coming to terms with the fact that he doesn't like her and he confides in her a little bit. It's actually a very sweet little B plot. But there's a point when she's trying to figure out if Tara and Nick are dating, because that's a rumor. And so she comes up to Tara and she's having this conversation with her. And basically the message of this conversation is like, we are lesbians and we actually made out in front of everyone at this party so i don't understand

why you're asking this question to us and all this stuff and imogen is like she's just like a sweet teenage girl who like is trying not to say anything bad but doesn't quite know what to do and so she's a little insensitive and then at the end of the conversation she goes i'm not like homophobic

Mattiei'm an ally i know that was so funny she's just like a basic b and and not in a bad way but she

Quinnjust is it's so funny because immediately tar and darcy go congratulations and thank you for your

Mattieservice she's not a bad person she's just basic yeah she's just a teenage girl who likes a boy

Quinnand is suddenly surrounded by queer people and takes a little while to adjust exactly did you have any favorite quotes that we haven't talked about yet well i feel like i'm gonna bring us

Mattiedown so much because yours was so funny such a light-hearted moment this show has lots of serious points too and they're very important uh yeah but i was the one that said i wanted it to be positive and now i'm like let me bring up this sad quote um but it's also a quote between tara and darcy the the token lesbians and um after tara posts a picture of her and darcy kissing on instagram and that's how they come out to like everyone in the school and uh the day after i believe they're

getting bullied a lot and specifically Tara is getting bullied a lot because she wasn't like out but Darcy was and they accidentally get locked in the band room because they're both in band together and uh Tara's crying and she's like I she says to Darcy I just want to live my life I don't want people to look at me differently and that just really uh struck me because a lot of times like in our podcast, Alex will be like, what do you want people to know about trans people? And I'm

like, that we're just people. We just want to be people and love our lives and don't want to be treated differently. So that just really like struck me in that moment because I was like,

QuinnI 100% understand what you're feeling. So. Yeah. There's a lot there in terms of the whole concept of pride. Like the whole theme of the queer community is supposed to be pride, but sometimes that idea washes over the very real nuances of like maybe I'm not proud maybe I'm just a person who wants to be a person and not be treated any differently and that can get very complicated for a lot of or even most queer people I would say and then that you say you're bringing down the

episode but I mean she confides in Darcy all these struggles that she's having and you know they don't make everything better like they don't fix the bullying or like make tara tara totally okay with everything in a moment but darcy is able to comfort her and to encourage her um and i think that it it's a negative thing that is being able to be turned into this positive moment between these two girlfriends as they're able to um as they're able to be each other's support yeah no

Mattieyou're right that's true i didn't think about that because again they have great communication and like listen to and support one another. And yeah, Tara is just basically saying, I don't want to be known as Tara the lesbian. And that's like what everyone is treating her as. She's just like, I'm still me. I'm still just Tara, but people are treating her as like Tara the lesbian, which, yeah. And it was good to see that too, because obviously it's like a different kind of bullying, but like very, very realistic as well.

QuinnSo yeah.

MattieAnd on a happier and lighter note, Do you want to talk about how amazing this soundtrack is and what a bop every song is?

QuinnDo I? My Spotify rap this year is going to be embarrassing. I have been listening to the Heartstopper soundtrack nonstop. It's so good. And it's also so queer.

MattieI mean, you like musicals, so I don't know if this makes it more embarrassing. i i love you but i'm just saying brutal i am a guest here i understand now if you never want to come back

Quinnum roasted right at the end i mean yeah yeah do you have a favorite song from the soundtrack

Mattieoh i don't know i i every one i was like this is a bop and this is a bop and this is a bop and they're all just so gay. Honestly, I don't know if I knew any of these songs other than the Church's song before I watched the show. The Clear Us Blue Church's song, that's the only one I knew before I watched it and they're all so gay.

QuinnYeah, I didn't know a lot. I knew Orla Gartland, Why Am I Like This? Because I'm a big Orla Gartland fan and I knew a couple more tangentially, but most of them are new to me. Baby Queen is this British artist who's got a lot of songs on the soundtrack, and she actually wrote Colors of You for Heartstopper, was like specially commissioned to do that. But I think there's so many good ones, so maybe I would change my mind tomorrow. But I think my favorite for the soundtrack might be Want Me by Baby Queen, which is the opening song of the entire show. And it is a song written about

Jodie Comer from Killing Eve. Really? What a beautiful way to start this show. It 100% is.

MattieYeah. Yeah. I really liked all the songs. I don't know. I have to go back and listen to them. But like all of the songs just fit with the show. So like everything about this show is just constructed

Quinnso well. It's just done so well. Yeah. Another part is the color scheme in the show and in the graphic novels as well blue represents nick and yellow represents charlie and so the entire show is full of blue and yellow and they're wearing blue and yellow at specific pivotal times in the show the last scene nick is wearing um yellow as he comes out to his mom to represent charlie like there's all sorts of of color scheme things as well that tie into the themes me the person who

Mattiewho has a bachelor's in television did not notice that there was a color scheme.

QuinnOh, no. I didn't notice the first time either, but I don't have a bachelor's in television. So I guess it's not as embarrassing.

MattieI feel like I there's definitely a moment right there where you can roast me. Just put a done sad on me. I'm done. But I think it's because I was more focused on like aesthetically, like the little comic book aspects like we talked about and how they just like highlighted the peak emotional moments.

Quinnyeah absolutely i love those little touches they made my heart sore every time i saw them because they're so romantic and they're so whimsical and i was like oh this is perfect i mean it didn't make your heart stop oh my god missed opportunity kick me off this is what happens when queer people make their own shows especially shows that they've already written the stories for and then they just get to go here it is in real life now and it's beautiful

Mattieit is beautiful i i hope i have not roasted you too much and that you will come back to talk about season two with me because i genuinely cannot wait for it and have to go and watch the series again when i have time so oh you know that i definitely will uh would you would you like to um tell the world who you are in case they don't know where to find you and if they want to listen to your

Quinnother stuff sure you can find me on instagram or tiktok for some reason um at aspiring robot fm which is where i like post random stuff and then i have a podcast called pictorial on relay fm it's just relay.fm slash pictorial that's all about art history and culture which is quite fun and so if you want to find me i'll be in one of those places and you can find Two Headed Girl

Mattieat TwoHeadedGirlFM on Twitter. And we just started like beefing up our Instagram and posting stuff over there. So you should go check it out or go to our Patreon and give us money so we can talk about more amazing queer television shows and art.

Thank you.

37. Heartstopper=Heartwarming 0:00 / 01:03:25