30. The Pec Dance
2022Show notes
The Pec Dance
Join Alex and Mattie as they discuss what it’s like for Mattie’s chest two years post top surgery. Alex asks Mattie a bunch questions like: what keeps changing after the first year? What is having sensation like? Do you have any post surgery regrets?
Anti-Trans Bill Resources
- Anti-Trans Legislative Tracker | Lambda Legal
- Legislation Affecting LGBTQ Rights Across the Country | American Civil Liberties Union
- Howard Brown Health condemns recent attacks on transgender youth in Texas - Howard Brown Health
- The Trevor Project | For Young LGBTQ Lives
Top Surgery Resources
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieHi, I'm Alex Cox. And I'm Mattie Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.
AlexHey everyone, you've probably heard about the truly horrifying amount of trans bills that are being passed all across the United States in, oh gosh, it is now March 2022. We aren't going to talk about that a lot today, but we'll have links in the show notes to the bills that have passed and the bills that are still in state Congress and hopes that, you know, you can call, picket, whatever to help, you know, trans kids not be a pawn in the Republican game of who wants to be.
to be the next presidents. Until then, I encourage you to check out the ACLU's website and lambda.org. There's a ton of awesome information and resources if you need them, including our beloved The Trevor Project. But in an attempt to take your mind off of some of that, we're going to be celebrating Mattie's two-year top surgery anniversary of leaving my tits in Michigan.
Yeah. Matthew, can you remind us what kind of top surgery you had?
MattieI had double incision top surgery, which is where you get two, like, horizontal scars. Basically, you got two incisions. Yeah, two incisions to take out your chest tissue.
AlexSo we're mostly going to be talking about that. There are other types, but you don't know enough about those.
MattieI have not experienced two years of healing from a different kind of top surgery. Sorry.
AlexI am really curious about how you're feeling today.
MattieYou know what? Not any different. Not gonna lie. Like, I'm happy. And like, I don't think about it a lot anymore. And I realize that means that I have a lot of privilege.
AlexWhat do you mean by that?
MattieWell, I'm just thinking about how we're doing this episode to celebrate and I'm super excited to celebrate. But I'm also thinking about all the people that are still having their surgeries pushed back because of the pandemic. So I almost feel like I should be thinking about it every day, not because of my top surgery, but because I should like I wish I could do more to help other than like boosting people's like GoFundMes and stuff about their top surgery funds, you know?
AlexYeah. The first question I had for you really was, do you still think about it every day as in your surgery? Or is it just in the back of your mind? Like, do you look in the mirror and see your scars and think, oh, yeah, I've had top surgery. But I so is the answer to that? Yes.
Mattieno no the answer is no because i don't think about my surgery i think about like when i go online at night which i shouldn't do because it's bad for your brain but when i go online i don't think about my surgery in regards to me i think about how i wish other people had as much access to surgery like if i look in the mirror i just see myself i don't look at my chest and go, oh, scars, surgery. I just think, oh, there's my body. It's nice.
AlexSo what has changed then between your one-year anniversary and your two-year anniversary?
MattieThere's a lot more healing that happens after the first year, and I didn't realize. If I can go back a little bit, the last time I looked in the mirror and thought, oh man, I had surgery was probably like eight or nine months post-op when my scars were still like red around the edges and like still healing and they've like just started being skin color
Alexeverywhere like the pink has finally gone away at like two years. Yeah I honestly haven't I mean And I see you all the time with and without a shirt, but I haven't noticed your scars in a really long time. Can I see them? Show me your scars.
MattieI can't hold a mic and flash you.
AlexThere we go. Yeah, that's.
MattieNo, it's just I didn't realize how long it took for scars to heal because I think of the unrealistic expectations set by social media. Like until it is on your body, you can be as mentally prepared as you think you are. But like until it has happened to your body, you don't know what the healing process is going to be like. And like it took it took a year to not see them as a wound. Now it's like I don't notice them at all, not because they're not visible, but because it's something I don't have to like care for anymore.
Like taking care of a tattoo after you get it. Once it's completely healed, you don't think about it anymore. And it's just like there on your body. Does that make sense?
AlexI think that's a really good comparison, actually, because you see it and it hopefully brings about positive associations or euphoria. But it's not as if you see a swollen mass of, well, in my case, a microphone. tattoo. Why do you think you had those expectations? Or rather, why do you think social media has been so pervasive with that toxic idea of, yeah, after a year, you know, you're pretty much good
to go? Because most people don't heal that quickly. You actually heal relatively quickly. But I know that with my top surgery, I'm probably going to have fairly significant scar. Well, I'll always have significant scarring, but my scars will be look very fresh for a very long time. And that's actually a pro when it comes to tattoos, because the two I have look very new.
MattieRight. Yours will be like redder or a darker color longer because that's just how your skin heals. And I think it's because social media just shows the good cases and is like super, super ableist and just shows the same trans. Like it's getting a little bit better, but like 90% of the top surgery healing content I see everywhere. Not just people I follow, but just like in forums, in hashtags.
Like not specifically who I follow, but just saturating the media in general is white guys. Like you can have all body types, but being white is, you know what I mean? Like everyone's bodies heal different and scars look different. But there's like thin white guys with double incision. Like that's the number one thing I see.
AlexWell, you're a thin white guy. Yeah, I mean, yeah. But I think that makes it even like that's just proves your point of you are the exact, I guess, stereotype of someone who would picture an AFAB person who has gotten top surgery. but even your experience was different than what most people project onto other experiences online.
MattieRight, exactly. It's just lots of healing happens at different times and in different ways and subtly and slowly. And it's not, it's made to seem like this cookie cutter process. And it's just like, even with healing, and we're speaking specifically for double incision, because I don't know like how the healing processes for other surgeries, obviously,
Alexother than what I've seen.
MattieBut it's almost like taking testosterone where there's like this will happen in three months. This will happen in six months. But with top surgery healing, it's not like that. Like I would say it's definitely like that for the first like couple months, like the medical procedure healing steps. But it's like the cosmetic healing that is a different process for everyone. Does that make sense?
AlexAbsolutely. It also speaks to the lack of information or accurate information about trans health care. And I find it interesting that I feel like I've found more about body healing from either trans women or cis women who've had cosmetic surgery because slowly there's less of a stigma around that. And I feel like with a lot of trans guys more and more, they almost see it as toxic to admit they're still healing or that their bodies still look delicate or whatever.
MattieIt's almost like a man up.
AlexLike, I got top surgery. Then I bolted up. Yeah.
MattieYeah. It's almost like a man up mentality. Like, you don't want to be seen as, like, hurting or healing or bruised or weak. It's like, I got top surgery. It's six months later. I'm working out like, you know what I mean? And that's super unrealistic for sure.
AlexYeah. Bitch about it, bitches. Go right ahead. Like, dang, it's it's literally called double incision. I mean, that's it's luckily now rather routine, but that doesn't mean it's not really
Mattieintensive surgery you know yeah it's a much more intense healing process than i anticipated but but to like focus on the second year of healing yeah it's it's been like mostly cosmetic and like sensation wise so like the first year is healing your wounds right like the deep internal healing and uh like the the nerves reconnecting the scars closing up um the bruises going away
and then the second year of healing is mostly cosmetic and like surface healing
Alexi think i still have a bruise from tripping over your wheelchair in march of 2020
Mattiei thought you were gonna say when you tripped and fell on the curb trying to get an Uber in Seattle.
AlexIn 2019. I do have a scar from that. So yeah.
MattieI very vividly remember you just, you didn't even trip over anything. You just like went down. It was just like mid-step
Alexand then you were on your face. Yes, yes. So I am used to long and arduous healing processes. So I'm not looking forward to it, but I feel like I have a healthy expectation for my own top surgery. Now that we've kind of gone over the aesthetics, what about the sensations that you mentioned? Oh, it's so crazy. That's the coolest part. Go on. If there could be
Mattieanything cool other than not having boobs, like that's the main thing, right? But the coolest part is that I did not expect all of my sensation to come back. I expected no sensation to come back because they tell you it's very likely with double incision, you won't get sensation back. And I was fine with that, which kind of just would mean that like that area of your chest from like your clavicle down to like the end of your sternum, your chest bone, your neck bone from from your
neck bone to your chest bone um would have like no like you would feel it there but you wouldn't feel any like hot or cold or pinching or pain stuff like that if i hadn't gotten sensation back right yeah but like the texture of different fabrics on my chest is fascinating because i'd say i have 95 of my sensation back and that i can feel stuff everywhere except right where my nipples are because they're not real nipples they're my i mean they were taken off my body and put back on
so they're just like they're not like nothing's happening there yeah but everywhere else i can
Alexfeel stuff i remember one of the first times you started to feel like sensation on your chest and you were like oh ah oh like not as if it was bad but you were it was it was like phantom
Mattietits well not phantom tits syndrome but like yeah no so it felt like it was uh initially like i felt tingles and like itching and it was a lot of like and like pinching and that was just like the nerves reconnecting but i would yeah i would feel like this tugging sensation and i just realized that it was like my my muscles and like scar tissue my scar tissue breaking up and then like because i have been working out like my muscles growing and stuff and it was just something that i hadn't
experienced in like a year and a half i wanted to say so i was just like oh why does why are things moving why can i feel things moving and it's because it's like your body's healed bitch
Alexall right so you've gotten sensation back your most of your scarring has healed do you still get a sense of euphoria or has that sort of faded away every goddamn day i have euphoria
Mattieevery day every time i shower every time i take a shirt off every time i get dressed in the morning Every night when I get ready for bed, I still put lotion on my scars in the winter because it's dry out. And it's just kind of nice feeling like the cold lotion on your scars. And like, yeah, every day. I have euphoria every time I look in the mirror.
AlexWhat about dysphoria?
MattieHip dysphoria. A lot of people talk about it right after top surgery because there's nothing on your chest to focus on. You notice other parts of your body more. And I think specifically people with bigger chests, because you can like literally look down and then see your hips. There's nothing in your eye line, like in your way. So yeah, definitely hip dysphoria is, is gotten a lot better though. But that's something that happened like right after I got top surgery because there's, you know, a different thing in your line of sight.
Alexyeah I know I'm concerned about my stomach because I have a very feminine tummy if that
Mattiemakes sense you have curves where like you have feminine curves is what I would say yeah like I'm
Alexprepared for the hips well I guess now I'm prepared for both but that's also something that isn't talked about as much and probably because of, I mean,
a mix of fat phobia and the, you know, skinny white guy phenomena of phenomena of cannabis.
But I'm kind of digging the fact that my stretch marks will almost kind of like match my scars like it it's kind of like i'm all beat up up here so it's no no big deal
Mattiei was gonna say because this is gonna sound weird but like because your body is so proportionate like i think it'll be different for you what like like because right you have big shoulders yes and big hips yes like but you are built proportionate so i have teeny shoulders and and not like not necessarily that i have big hips but like before i started working out i carried more weight around my hips just that's where women care you know what i mean like naturally where women carry more weight so i think because your body is already more boxy
and i mean that in a very flattering way i promise that it'll be less not as bad as you think
Alexif people don't know we're married you sound like just you're an ugly box Alex I'm a box I am a big old I'm an I'm Cox the Ox Box do wait it wasn't that funny Matthew this is a professional panel that we're doing here about two years post-op.
Talking about your ox box. We touched upon it a bit before, but you've got, you know, some dysphoria, but what about trans jealousy?
MattieOh, well, I think a lot of my trans jealousy circles around to, like, fitness. So I don't know if it's specifically, like, top surgery oriented. like what do you mean by that like by like build it like i didn't have pec muscles before i transit not before i train well yeah before i transition but also like before top surgery and and so like as i start to like work out i i yeah i think it's more of like a like a more masculine
build thing rather than it has to do with top surgery.
AlexSo more of...
MattieMale muscle distribution. Like, because I'm always going to be a skinny twink.
AlexYeah. Okay. There's nothing wrong with skinny twinks. And also, you're not a skinny twink for... You have body hair. but then are you kind of I guess talking just about being self-conscious about your
Mattiebody in general and not necessarily dysphoria yeah yeah it's more it's if anything all of my dysphoria has shifted to social dysphoria because I don't take up a lot of space because I am a short king and just just a tinier person and like that short okay but like bill build wise i am a tinier person um and i i feel like in male spaces or when being out like you know most men
are bigger taller and take up a lot of space they just do and and so i find that i really only have
Alexsocial dysphoria now the reason i correct you about your size and height is because like you you even just said that you didn't have pec muscles pre-surgery but you totally did like remember i've poked them be like oh muscles muscles yeah i think and i think it's not even
Mattielike a like a top surgery it's almost like a trans like growing up experience it's just like now that I feel right in my body and like I have like like it it almost feels like having a different body but in a obviously but like in a way I've never gotten to experience before and at like 31 32 it's just kind of like a little mind-blowing like there's something new every day that I'm like, oh, I didn't know that my body had that. That's pretty cool. Like I can make my
pecs dance. And I think I think that brings a lot of gender euphoria. I love the pec dance.
AlexI know that you are, I was about to say relatively happy, but the way I've seen you, you've been extremely happy despite, you know, some of the dysphoria and the self-confidence issues that if you didn't have them, I would be a little bit concerned because that's not the person I know. It would be like if I woke up and suddenly I'm like, yes, I rock. I am so good at what I do.
Like you'd be a little bit.
MattieI think an alien would have overtaken your body.
AlexYeah, it's a little body snatchery.
MattieYou don't become 100% more confident when you remove your boobs. That's not a superpower. You know what? Maybe people do.
AlexMaybe that is a superpower some people gain. Yeah. And it's just not one that either of us have, I think. But that's okay. But would you change anything about your chest if you could?
MattieNo. I know that that can be a rare experience. But like I am 100 percent. Oh, do you? Well, I mean, if we're talking about like cosmetic wise, I wish I hadn't started sleeping on my side so soon because it did stretch out one of my scars. And so I have a little bit of a keloid there. But like that that's literally my only complaint is like I think I started sleeping on my side too soon. And on one side, it gave me a keloid scar, but like, which is just like a thicker, darker segment of my scar. That's literally the only thing about my chest that I'm like, meh. But like, it's not even something I notice anymore. I think as you're healing, you notice all these little things and you're like, is that going to be okay? Is that going to be all right?
And like, you just got to give it time. Like I'm on a Facebook group for my surgeon, Dr. Wolf. And, and of course, it's normal to be nervous as you're healing. But everyone will be like, you know, two or three months post-op and they'll be like, oh, this looks funny. This looks funny. It's like, man, some of my stuff didn't heal or look normal until. And normal is very relative. Or look like healed like in until like a year and a half post-op.
Like it just doesn't happen that fast. Like I see a lot of people asking when their nipples are going to like regain normal color. That took almost two years. Like it's just everyone heals. Everyone heals different. Is there anything I would change? I would have been more careful about my sleeping positions. But that's that's all really. so no regrets then no detransitioning no regrets so you get stitches to stitch your nipples back on and i can still
Alexi'm pulling up my shirt to look at my nipples like you need some foley work right now
Mattieso like just now and i don't look at it a lot like my chest i don't inspect it a lot anymore because oh yes you do uh i meant like the healing process uh oh i guess so i don't like i don't like nitpick every little thing right pick um but like for a really long time i could see the scars from where my sutures were around my nipples and now it's nothing they're not there
but that took like almost two years to heal and i also see people talk about that a lot so i and i
Alexwill probably are always have mine they're gonna be like little i i don't want them to look like little assholes you know like an asterisk with little not what they look like i know but now that i've said it i take it back i kind of think it would be funny yeah well no because cat buttholes don't have the little like oh no you're right yep they do huh huh gonna have a cat butthole chest i would be no just just the nips um well i mean that being said what advice do you have for me
because I have been putting off going forward with the, you know, scheduling of my top surgery because of all of the ups and downs of COVID restrictions being lifted, then brought back down and up and down and up and down. But I think we're finally at a place where I feel good about scheduling something, hopefully by the end of 2022.
Mattietoo i was gonna say also dysphoria which is which is why you've been gone for a little bit too
Alexyeah yeah so be be real with the people oh about why oh why i haven't been around on the show yeah a lot of dysphoria um but also hello everybody i'm doing podcasting full time now patreon.com slash twoheadedgirl please give us money to pay to leave alex's tits in michigan yes all the boobage all the boobage yeah yeah not positive maybe kansas we'll see um but that's
where medley is right that's not important um but uh probably michigan or florida sorry what
Mattiewas your question i started thinking about nipple cat butthole nipples yeah and then i was thinking
Alexabout um dysphoria and being unemployed and not shut up you're not unemployed i hi mom and dad i'm a podcaster i'm a trans podcaster oh patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm anyway do you have what advice do you have for me that you would like to publicly say my advice is
Mattiea couple of things. My first advice is be very explicit about where you want your scars and how you want them to look if that is something you are concerned about. See, afterwards, a lot of people haven't had that talk with their surgeon and then are very disappointed with how their scars look. But like when you're having your consult, say, hey, I would like my scars this way. Do you think you could do that with my chest. I know it's hard to advocate for yourself, but that is super
important because your surgeon cannot read your mind. If you want your scars more straight, more curved, farther back, like not to meet in the middle if it's possible, these are things you have to talk about before you get the top surgery. As a lot of people will be like, I hate the angle of my scars. But if you didn't, your surgeon's not a mind reader. And then second, be super patient with healing and your body is probably going to gross you out like there was a really big
disconnect from my body when I had no sensation and when I was healing you just really need to be patient and and give yourself like some some you need to be gentle with yourself like everyone heals at their own at their own pace and everyone's body is different and Like nitpicking the stuff and worrying about the stuff.
AlexOr nip picking. Don't nip pick.
MattieYeah, don't pick at your sutures. But like just make sure you leave yourself. If you've done all your research, you're ready, you have your plan, your surgeon, your date, all those things. Just give yourself a little leeway and remember that you are going to be healing from major surgery. It's going to take time and it can be hard and that's okay. And make sure you ask for help.
AlexSo what I'm hearing is I can be lazy and bitch about this for as long as I want.
MattieLazy and smelly and bitchy. Yeah, that's that's basically the first couple of weeks after surgery. Lazy, smelly, bitchy.
AlexWhat about revisions if somebody is unhappy with how their chest looks?
MattieI think we don't talk about that enough and I'm slowly seeing people talk about it more and more but like revisions for cosmetic surgery are pretty common all bodies heal differently a lot of people get concerned about dog ears which is where there's a little extra fat tissue left under your armpits which happens if you are larger generally but you can also ask your surgeon to put your scars farther back so that doesn't happen there's like a lot of different processes
to uh try to avoid that but it's also not a bad thing like bodies heal differently sometimes people who get like if we're talking about it like a cosmetic surgery sometimes people who get nose jobs need to get them fixed like you know what i mean like it's it's not i want to say it's not a perfect science but like like it should be but it's but it's not and like revision should be normalized because unfortunately a lot of people do need revisions and it's not because they've
done anything wrong or the doctor has done anything wrong it's just because everyone heals differently
Alexand you've never had top surgery before probably so no one knows how your body is going to heal
MattieExactly. And it's different than like an emergent surgery or other types of surgeries that are like, you know, obviously inside your body because it is a cosmetic surgery and you want it to look a certain way. Like revisions are happen a lot. They're not unheard of at all. And they're definitely not talked about enough. So don't like panic or hate yourself or like, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people go to a really bad, dark place if they need a revision. And that's understandable, especially if you've been waiting a really long time for top surgery and because it is a lot of money.
AlexTotally. Which is why I want to echo talk to your surgeon and see what revisions will cost if they will cost anything, which in most cases they shouldn't, and learn about that process before. Like, I'm going in assuming I will need some sort of revisions.
MattieYeah. And the only reason I went in thinking I wouldn't is because I do have a smaller body type and generally I heal like like I know how I heal basically like I know my body. I'm also older. So like I have seen like wounds on my body heal. Right. I'm not like, you know, 16 and have never you know what I mean? Like I think absolutely. Yeah, I think it's there's so many factors that can go around it and needing a revision isn't anything. shameful and should be normalized more i think and just not even normalized but just talked about
more because a lot of people do need revisions and feel a lot of like shame and regret and like they've done something wrong or and and no it's it's not that at all it's just bodies are weird
Alexman bodies are weird yeah and it's stupid toxic masculinity listen boys you're not special talk about your chests all right everybody if if women can talk about their noses and their downstairs bits on tiktok you can calm down about your chest okay i'm sorry no but i i know what you mean if
Mattietalk about like their nose jobs or like their botox or their like lips or you know like getting implants like why shouldn't we be able to talk about getting rid of our gesticles yeah you paid
Alexa lot for it. Talk about it. And, you know, I thought about like, oh, God, I'm 31. Like if I get top surgery when I'm 32, that's so old. But then I was like, OK, one, that's not that old. Two, I know my body so much more than I did even like when I was 25, you know?
MattieAnd I think that's what made the healing process easier for me too.
AlexBecause it might take longer, but you do know your body more.
MattieRight. I was more intimately aware with my body, but it also brought more euphoria too.
AlexIt did.
MattieQuick sidebar.
AlexYes.
MattieMy mom used to work in the ICU and she had a 60-year-old patient that had just gotten a boob job at 60. So you are not too old to get top surgery because she got them double Ds. And she was super happy.
AlexWow. She must have had a strong back.
MattieI know, right?
AlexGood for her. Dang. So, you know what? You do you. Honestly, probably the thing I'm looking forward to the most is the relief of the weight off of my chest and it being a little bit easy. Yeah. Yeah. it being easier to stand up straight because yes most of my slouching is from latent dysphoria however i was gonna say working at a computer these uh well that too well one well one nerd
two dysphoria all right folks thank you for listening i'm alex cox and and i'm Mattie cox
MattieAnd this has been Two Headed Girl.
AlexHeck yeah it has.