Two Headed Girl
Episode 31 artwork
Episode 31 · May 10, 2022 · 01:32:43

31. Love The Soap, I'm a Clean Boy

This weekWalk the halls of Grey-Sloan Memorial Hospital with Alex and Mattie as they discuss the progression of trans character story-lines in the show Greys Anatomy.
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Show notes

Come on a journey with Mattie and Alex through the halls of Grey-Sloan Memorial Hospital. Where, instead of surgery and drama, we’re deep-diving into the trans character storylines. 


Show Notes

This is a long one pals. Back to our regularly programming later this month. With everything going on in the world we urge you to check out these resources:


Grey’s Episode Summaries

      (Follow along!)

Grey’s Character Summaries

Trans Terms

Help Trans Youth

Media Extras


Find Us on The Interwebs


Two Headed Girl is creating Queer Podcasts | Patreon


Thanks to our pals

Editor: Quinn Rose

Music By: Seth Boyer

Art By: Kevin Budnik and Kara Fagan 

Transcript

Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakes

AlexHi, I'm Alex Cox. And I'm Mattie Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.

MattieWhat are we going to be talking about today, Alex?

Alexqueer characters in the what 88 year old television soap opera slash dramedy slash medical something or ever Grey's Anatomy really how long has it been on the air 19 years so I

Mattiethought you were going to be more succinct than me no but let me be more succinct than you

AlexI have COVID brain. Don't worry, everybody. I'm on the mend. It's all good. Vaccines are great. Hasn't been that bad. So Matthew, you are going to basically tell me a story about the saga of queer characters on Grey's.

MattieSpecifically, we are going to be talking about the evolution of trans storylines in Grey's Anatomy, which has been on for 18 seasons. And if for some reason you do not know what Grey's Anatomy is because you have been blessed and not heard about it in these past almost 20 years. It is a show about doctors. They are surgeons, and it starts from when they are interns, and it goes until they are chiefs of surgery in their own departments. It centers around the main character slash surgeon, Meredith Gray. Thus, it is called Gray's Anatomy. There you go.

AlexIt beats out It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia for the longest running live action series, but not the longest, I believe, sitcom, technically. So two important shows in our lives.

MattieTotally. Yeah. So this is a long one. If you've never seen Grey's Anatomy, might skip it because you won't know what's going on. If you know anything about Grey's Anatomy and have seen a couple episodes, then you know that they're all surgeons. There's drama and crazy stuff ensues. So I would stick along for the ride.

AlexSo much horniness.

MattieWell, not in these episodes.

Alexnot in these episodes true true you know what matthew that's right because gender and sexuality

Mattieare a different thing all right where would you like me to start because i do have i do have a saga for you that entails the evolution of how they treat trans people in gray's anatomy and

Alexlet me tell you, doesn't start out great. I would love for you to regale me with this saga because I am pretty familiar with the first 15 years of Grey's Anatomy, but I don't really recall a lot of the trans storylines, especially the ones that are newer. And I've seen some of your notes, And you really have like a timeline of what this evolution is.

And I think that it is a really great parallel for how queer characters were being treated on network TV in general. Especially because Grey's Anatomy has always been on ABC, which is like the family network, because it's always been owned by Disney. So I'm really looking to you to see what you think about the way it's kind of evolved, not just in terms of this show, but how you, at the time it aired, felt about it back in what, 2000 and something or other.

MattieSo the show aired in 2005, but we're starting in season three, which is 2006. I don't know how that works. They had like a half first season. But so we're starting in 2006, season three, episode seven, Where the Boys Are. If you want to watch it and follow along, that'd be cool. Actually do that. And if you want to follow along, we will also have the timestamps for the direct quotes in the show notes, which are good little scenes to check out.

so we're starting with season three episode seven where the boys are and this takes place in 2006 like that's when it was written but also gray's is pretty much followed real time so it does take place during 2006 because most episodes and storylines in gray's anatomy are very topical because that's just what Shonda likes to do.

AlexKind of a ripped from the headlines, but medical headlines versus true crime law and order stuff.

MattieYeah, for sure.

AlexAnd it also should be noted that this was the beginning of the Grey's Anatomy phenomena that it was becoming because I'm sure if people haven't heard, I'm sure if people haven't watched Grey's Anatomy, They probably know the terms McDreamy and McSteamy. So 2006, Grey's Anatomy was really, really popular.

MattieIt was. That was, I think, I don't even know how many viewers. I'd have to go back and look it up. But it has since gone down from its peak at like 18 million viewers. It has gone down to like six. So that's where we are now. So this was pretty much mainstream media at the time or in the mainstream media. So the summary for this episode is that Dr. Mark Sloan, who does plastic surgery, and Meredith Gray, who is the main character and an intern at the time, are going to perform...

Gray's Anatomy. Get it? Get it? they're going to perform a vaginoplasty on the patient Donna who is a male to female trans woman and what is a vaginoplasty I mean basically it's where they turn the penis inside out into a vagina and so the main storyline is about Donna a transgender woman who is still with her wife and they were married before Donna transitioned

and the wife is there for support but also not like 100% on board yet.

Speaker AAm I missing something? I believe you're missing the fact that Dr. Sloan is planning to remove my husband's penis this afternoon. Danielle Gibson, 34, in for sexual reassignment surgery. Donna, not Danielle. She's been living as Donna for two years. Come on, Gray. So essentially today we are inverting his, her, her penis. That's okay, you'll get it.

MattieWhat's great, I think, one of the things right off the top is that the character of Donna is played by an actual trans woman, an actress called Alexandra Billings. And she said in an article that this is the first role where she didn't have to play a sex worker or wasn't killed in the first scene.

AlexWow. yeah oh and she's not just i mean i i she's not just like oh gosh i'm sorry that that really like leveled me with both how not quite surprising but because it is still now trans characters are regularly sex care as sex workers or murdered on tv but in 2006 to be what i would consider

a pretty basic ass lady based on her character and i don't i don't mean that in a bad way like she's very wine mom you know just just a basic nice person yeah i mean we can get into the cons

Mattiebut like one of the things that struck me off the top was that in 2006 they got an actual trans actor to play the character yeah and she was she is and was like actually known for being a trans actress in svu in soap operas stuff like that i immediately

Alexrecognized her as i've seen that woman murdered before yep that would be svu yeah yeah but let

Mattieus focus on the medicine of gray's anatomy yes so mark sloan who is the main doctor right on board introduces Meredith because she is the the supporting doctor at the time an intern so she's not actually doing the procedure she's learning because it's a teaching hospital and Meredith is like uh so who's getting the vaginoplasty and uh and Mark is like get on board like this is a trans woman we're doing the vaginoplasty because Meredith was very confused

confused because in the room was Donna and her wife Vicki. Donna is the patient and Meredith was like you are both women I don't understand why you would need a vaginoplasty. And this is of course played for like the derp-a-derp like comedic relief where Meredith reads everything off the medical chart incorrectly. The wrong pronouns, the dead name, all of that stuff. but to her defense it is clear she has never met a trans patient before like ever so I feel like

she's almost like like a stand-in for the audience who has possibly never known a trans person

Alexabsolutely and what took me by surprise is they do the ding-a-ling bit as you said like uh what huh uh but you're uh man well but huh but meredith isn't just a stand-in for the audience but she is the butt of the joke basically versus it being like oh it's such a shock that

Mattiethis woman is used to be a man i would disagree i'd say the main cons of this episode are that Meredith acts like an idiot and it's played with the, there's certain music in the background of Grey's and this is the like derp-a-derp music, like where's your penis kind of thing. And also the episode is definitely played for, like the trans reveal is definitely played for shock value, which I wouldn't expect any less from 2006, honestly.

I was like, yep, this is going to be the problematic one. But very big con, Mark McSteamy, who is kind of a sexist douchebag, is like right on board. Doesn't like correct pronouns, correct name. Like this is Donna. She's been my patient for years. We've done a breast augmentation. I, you know, helped her start home hormones. And he's like, Gray, get on board. Like get your shit together or leave.

AlexHe's an equal opportunity sexist.

MattieYeah, yeah, I guess, yeah.

AlexAnd the wife of Donna actually says to Meredith when she messes up Donna's pronouns that Meredith has picked it up faster than she did. And even Donna is so patient with, haha, even though she is the patient, she's really patient with Meredith because she recognizes that Meredith is an intern and young. And in 2006, that isn't common even in plastic surgery, which she is currently studying under Mark Sloan.

So I was taken aback by just how loving Donna is. And the more I think about it, though, it's a bit of a con in that it puts all of the onus on a trans woman to explain her deal, even though she is the one getting the procedure. so I get it's a teaching hospital and I'm kind of conflicted like in 2016 it's pretty it was

Mattie2006 sorry oh you're right we won't spend too much time on this one because it's not the biggest one but what what I will say is I'm glad that they shared this story and of course there are there are big cons at the end of it but I don't think it's I don't think it's a con that Donna had to explain to the audience. I think it's better. I think it's better, especially back then, 2006. I know I say back then, but like, come on, we're still struggling with these same issues right now.

I think one of the great things is that they did explain it to the audience. Like, this is the process going on hormones. And Donna does say, like, this is the last step of my transition, which, you know, now that isn't how it goes. But like back then, that is how it was seen. And like they said, instead of gender-affirming surgery, they said sex change operation. But I think that they portrayed the medical facts in a way that might have been more accessible to more people at the time. And ultimately, it educates Meredith so that by the end of the episode, she has her shit together and has a grasp on what it's like to care for a trans patient.

So I think Meredith being the stand-in for the audience makes up for the fact that Donna has to be the educator.

AlexMy quick question is, do the two wives break up in the end?

MattieNo. Vicky stays together because, so to get to that point, what happens is it turns out the hormones that Donna was on, even though they are through the hospital gave her breast cancer and so she would need to get a double mastectomy and basically at that time what they considered detransition stop hormones altogether to keep the breast cancer from coming back and donna does say at that point i would

rather die than stop transitioning and yeah and what what happens is her wife is like no I will be her for you no matter what you decide but you do need to get the mastectomy and and Mark is like there is a risk of the cancer coming back even with the mastectomy and Donna was just like well I can't I can't stop hormones like this is my life I'm finally living my life we should mention that Donna is like 45, 50, so has been waiting for this for a very long time. But ultimately,

at the end, her wife does decide to stay and support her despite her wanting to continue on hormones, which may shorten her life. And that is the big con at the end. It is saying that transitioning isn't safe. It's basically like the message is it will ruin your life. It will kill you transitioning and hormones are dangerous and put a strain on your relationships and are dangerous for your physical health and honestly over everything else in the episode

Alexthe fact that it ends that way is really is really unfortunate i had a mixed reaction especially because I mean unfortunately this is a medical situation that does happen but literally less than one in a million you know and Grey's Anatomy does have weird medical outlier

cases because it's television but it does i i wouldn't say that it like reinforces this is dangerous but it i disagree yeah yeah i think we're gonna disagree on this but i do think that you're right it kind of puts it in the audience's head that there are more medical risks than there are in reality. And at the same time, I am so glad that they stay together

because another trope obviously is, you know, when two partners are together and one of them realizes they're trans and transitions, it's like, oh, I'm out, hard no. I mean, but at least having the relationship not revolve around Donna's transness was a bit refreshing.

MattieThe relationship didn't, right. The storyline did, which is what we'll get to in the future. But yeah, ultimately, if we're going to rate these episodes for how they handled trans characters, I think I would, because of the year it was released, give it a 6.5 out of 10.

AlexOoh, are we rating them? Yeah. Ooh. Actually, I think we're on the same page. we just like different elements of the story more, I would give it a seven, I think.

Would you like to tell me about the next trans episode, which I believe doesn't take place until 2013?

MattieYeah, we're going to jump ahead seven years to 2013.

AlexTrans people did not exist.

MattieFor another six years. They just went under a rock.

AlexThere were no trans men.

MattieJust none. So season nine, episode 14, The Face of Change, which isn't about transitioning, but would be, that would be a cool title, The Face of Change, but it's about the face of the hospital changing. Womp womp.

AlexYeah, all of these titles, we'll get to them, but...

MattieThey literally have nothing to do with... They have nothing to do with the character arcs. Just, nope, nope, none of them. Alex, you are 100% wrong.

AlexEach of these titles typically give a nod to both the A and B storylines, so where the boys are doesn't refer to everything going on to the episode, but it's a little bit like donna where are the boys and then season 9 episode 14 the face of change i know it's i know that like there are multiple storylines but you can't deny that it's a little bit of a nod okay i you know what i will agree except for the last two episodes that

Mattiewe'll talk about yes yes i agree okay so this episode has the doctors jackson avery and alex karev are working together on a transgender patient named brian who is ftm who's undergoing

Alextop surgery and jackson is the new plastic surgeon right after uh jackson's the new plastic surgeon

Mattieand then Alex works with kids and technically this patient is 19 but he has been taking care of this patient since he was 16 and wanted to start hormones and has helped him with all his letters getting a letter from a therapist all that stuff so he's been there through the whole process and that's why he stays on the case of Brian who is 19 because he wants to follow through all of the transition steps which big pro for this episode is the doctor the doctors being

Alexstrong advocates for the trans youth yeah the only reason we mentioned the whole oh he's a doctor but still is treating an adult is because of the irregularity of trans people getting like consistent care in general but wow having your same doctor just blew my mind and at this point I was kind of in 2013 like I was like I'm pretty sure I'm trans but let's just keep that

under the radar until now like me personally because internalized transphobia but I was blown away at how dedicated the doctors were to this kid should we talk about the dedication

Mattiethe fact that the there there is the typical storyline that the father is very unsupportive

Alexof the transition and has kicked yeah just get into this but has kicked kicked the uh his son

Mattieout of the house of course at 19 because 19 is an adult to some parents and kicked him out of

Alexthe house without even knowing he was trans he was still using his dead name yeah oh yeah yeah

Mattiebut the father was still using right dead name um but alex litter the the dad gets really violent starts yelling at brian who is in the hospital bed getting ready for surgery so alex the pediatrician takes the dad by the collar slams him against the wall and tells him to calm down or leave and like Alex is very toxic and has a lot of problematic things but he stands up both the character and me go ahead go ahead I'm sorry also stand up very strongly for your trans patient

whose father was becoming violent maybe you wouldn't punch him but you know you you would stand up for him oh thank you but you know I really like that typical storyline because people need to see it. Like we know what happens, but I do think people need to see it. But the biggest pro for me in this episode is definitely that both doctors are advocating really hard for the patient. Would you like to talk about the other positive aspect, Brian's girlfriend?

AlexI didn't know when I watched this. And I watched the whole episode, actually, because this is the storyline I could relate to the most or rather at the time I watched it I could relate to it the most I didn't know that Ryan the trans kid I forget who his what his girlfriend's name is me too oh gosh um well his girlfriend is a couple years older than him and she is also a trans woman

And apparently they met and Brian's dad assumed that like she was the one who made him trans. and her for like for exposition purposes brian's name is brianna and that's another trope that happens through the episode is the dad is like brianna brianna and his girlfriend's like

Speaker Ano brian you put these ideas into her head his head and while i do support the decision believe me he came to it all on his own she's barely out of high school for god's sake she is a child she doesn't know what she wants jess is everything okay here his his girl his girlfriend's name is

Alexjess by the way thank you uh i i genuinely forgot where do where do they meet brian and jess

Mattiemeet at a trans support group that's at the hospital called Grace Loan that is at the hospital and Alex the pediatrician recommends it to them and that's how they find support since they both

Alexhad unsupportive families. Imagine a world in which you are paying a doctor and that doctor gives you treatment and services that you actually need. That's the most unrealistic

Mattiepart of this episode. Honestly, yes, it is. A hundred percent. Yes, it is.

AlexLike this whole podcast, sometimes I giggle when I'm uncomfortable and sad. But Matt, tell me more about Jess, his girlfriend, because she is a delight. And oh, I should point this out. In even into like today, in today, like today, Jess still probably would not pass as a cis woman. And this was I think the first time I saw a trans woman on TV

who couldn't pass but wasn't a she she is not murdered or a sex worker she was actually so the

Mattieone con i have about this episode is that she she was played by a trans actor but brian the main character getting top surgery was played by a cis woman and i don't know why they would do that if you're gonna get one trans actor why not make the other one actually trans and i get it maybe they maybe they just didn't have time or you know what i mean like i understand but it's still if you're gonna get one person that's actually trans why not make the other actor for the character

Alextrans i can only assume it was a matter of basically either time or money which i would rather have this story exist even if a cis woman is playing this trans kid kind of in the way that I'm really glad the movie boys don't cry exist even though hot hot button I know I know we'll

we'll have a whole episode on it but it's a true story well this is a I don't want to steal the thunder of this episode very very complex layered movie we will we will do more but let's focus on

Mattieone of my favorite problematic shows gray's anatomy all right tell me more about jess jess is just great jess is the one that is brian's advocate uh jess is the one who gives brian a home when he gets kicked out because jess is 21 i believe or 22 jess keeps correcting brian's father like you said and then ultimately in a very patient way yeah and then ultimately the brian's father gets in jess's face and she says i'm the one who emailed you to come

i was pretending to be brian i thought you would want to be here for one of the biggest days in your son's life and he walks away and they go through uh brian goes through with the surgery everything goes smoothly he comes out of it and as he's being pushed out of the or sees his dad and his dad is standing there crying and just said i wanted to see if you were okay now i'm leaving and walks away and that's how it ends a typical but realistic

Alexstory here but what genuinely shocked me is this sort of realistic like the realistic approach just takes to how this is going down he tells brian's dad that you You know, Brian sees him as a hero and wants to be like his dad when he grows up.

And part of the, a small part of the conflict is that Brian's dad was so upset that he learned even that his son was trans over email and that he was getting surgery the night before. and I don't know if you know this Matthew but I could sort of relate to finding out that the most important person in your life is trans over let's say a text message I have no idea what you're talking about I don't remember that at all

even if it's not upsetting it's still quite jarring but seeing but when Jess emails Brian's dad that is a good fucking partner. I mean, wow, what a great kid. I was like, oh gosh, it was really, really generous and heartwarming. And sure, it ends in the stereotypical way of the dad walking

away because he can't be accepting of his son. But the relationship between Brian and Jess was just so i i don't know it was just so organic it really hit home in a good way i agree with you

Mattieand i would also like to add that since this episode airs what seven years later i i am so glad they did one with trans youth um because there was just starting to be representation like specifically in the media I believe Ryan Quesada who is a musician was like on Oprah and stuff like that so again another kind of like ripped from the headlines thing where this was going on in the media and it was nice to see not only a young trans person transitioning but that

they were both supportive and together and that like look this isn't just like I feel like it was they also hit on the point was like this isn't a fad this isn't a like something that he's going to come out of brian is is being himself and we are helping him realize that and honestly i would say this episode isn't a hundred percent an improvement but it is it is getting there i would give i would give this one i mean stereotypes included and i i would give this one like an eight

out of 10 for for trans content because it could have been better uh there were a lot of like tropes and stuff it definitely could have been better but i i liked how most things were resolved and that they weren't resolved in a tragic way it wasn't saying being trans it unlike the last one is a death sentence you know what i mean it's like you can live your life being trans yes i

AlexI mean, I would say maybe eight and a half only because it also doesn't portray them as tragic. But even though Brian's dad is like, how much is rent?

MattieOh, yeah. He does give them a little bit of money.

AlexYeah. But they're not homeless trans teens, which is very much another trope that we've talked about before. and seeing two young trans people being able to provide for themselves was again just refreshing yeah I agree can I ask did you watch this when it first aired or around when it had so yeah this is

Mattieactually the first one I didn't see when it first aired because I hadn't started watching graves yet I don't think I started watching it until college. So I would have been 23. So yeah, I was in college. So I started when I was 22. And this is the first one I saw live. And this was the first, not the first time I, yeah, actually the first time I had seen a trans character not be murdered or a sex worker on television.

AlexBut as a trans mask person, how did it make you feel? Did it like stir up any emotions like it did with me?

MattieI was not out to myself yet. I was still dealing with other things, as we've mentioned before. I mean, I guess this ties into it. I was at that point like still 100% dealing with my mental health, dealing with some alcoholism. And honestly, until I was like 24, I don't think I even had like the time to process my gender because I was so focused on getting other things in my life together that were, I don't want to say drowning me, but like I couldn't, I couldn't even accept or be myself like, and, and even have the space to think about those things at that time in my life.

Alextotally and yeah i mean at this point we uh oh wait i introduced you to this show oh gosh we were together oh yeah 20 or 2013 did we watch this in my dorm room at your aunt's oh oh sorry um yeah i i would not say you were uh metaphorically drowning but i would say that you were metaphorically keeping your head above water and you did not have time to hold yet another

thing while paddling about in the life of in your own life as a young queer person. Right I was just

Mattiekind of accepting myself for being bisexual so it was it was a journey it was a journey. Yeah we were

Alexfocusing on you know getting jobs and eating dominoes pizza on our first year after after college so uh wow oh god i i'm having memories of us watching this now that's so cute thank you for that all right i'm sorry do you want to move to the next episode i do and yeah if you're all good with that one oh well one thing that i did see in your notes this episode has almost no shock value And it is the first time on TV I ever saw a T4T couple.

MattieWould you like to say what that means?

AlexYou know, this is another episode. Again, foreshadowing.

MattieIt just means that both people in the relationship are trans.

AlexRight, right. And T4T is one of these things where if you know, you know. and we'll cover it on a new episode. But basically Mattie and I, most people would consider us a T4T couple.

MattieYeah, well, that should be an episode coming soon. Maybe around my birthday.

AlexYeah, I'm not trying to be coy. I want to be coy.

MattieCome back. Give us your money. Come back.

AlexYes, patreon.com slash two-headedgirlfm. If you would like to help keep this show chugging along, I will mention again that now podcasting is my full-time job. So we'll probably have more frequent episodes. I'm stoked about it. And it would not have been possible with the support of folks like yourselves. Even if you just listen, thank you so much.

and you know all the other shows i do but i i i truly can't state how great grateful um i am and i'm not crying you're crying i'm not crying you're crying i i literally cannot if we want to finish this episode so thank you Mattie take it away

Mattieseason 11 episode 12 2015 the great pretender yeah how can i'm all right no i totally

Alexdisagree i know i know wait wait summary summary summary start at the top start at the top all right matthew what is this episode about that definitely doesn't have anything to do with the

Mattietitle listen listen i'm i'm sorry i'm listening season 11 episode 12 the great pretender aired two years later in 2015 and here is what i think one of the best episodes like we are moving along in the evolution this one hits home for me it gave me lots of feels gray's feels as the soap

Alexopera of the show generally does this is definitely the most soapy of the trans stories but it's so

Mattiei i love the soap i love the drama i love the soap i'm a clean boy uh this episode centers around two main characters uh ben warren who was an anesthesiologist that's the person that gives you the gas to fall asleep in surgery is training to be a surgical intern and his wife miranda bailey who is the chief of general surgery we're only going to refer to them

by their first name so things don't get confusing. Doctors married Ben and Miranda. So in this episode, Ben and his brother are scattering their father's ashes on the side of the road where they used to go camping as kids. And Miranda's there because she wants to make sure her husband isn't doing anything stupid because it's like basically in a ravine. And of course, Ben's brother trips and falls and they bring him to the hospital because that's how Grey's Anatomy episodes sometimes start.

AlexMm hmm. That's yeah, that's the cold open is is either a shock or tragedy. Or both. Yeah, yep, yep. You're right. Typically both.

MattieThey admit Ben's brother right away and initially think it's internal damage to the spleen and liver from the fall because that's what the medical tests say. But Miranda stays in the hospital room with him a little longer and comes out and says, Ben, I think you need to go in there before your brother goes to surgery and listen to what he has to say. and Ben flies off the handle and he's like it's drugs I knew it was drugs I knew it was

going to go back to drugs after our father died because he couldn't cope and he didn't tell me and like flies off the handle and his wife Miranda sits him down

Speaker Ait's only me because when he tells you you need to react better than this Ben Warren what is it okay Kurt is Kurt is transitioning he she is transgender and she identifies as female and she wants to live life as a woman

Mattieyour brother is becoming your sister and while that wording is is dated i think i think it's important that bailey right away is like she is trans your brother is becoming your sister And when you go into that room, you need to handle this better than you did just now.

AlexI agree that the language is dated. However, it's clear that Miranda is talking to Ben, her husband, as someone who has virtually no experience with trans people. So she's trying to put it in a way that he can understand since it is, you know, his his sibling and Ben and his former brother were very, very close.

And I didn't get the sense of Miranda being like, I don't know, like being a certain way, I guess. Like she has a lot of experience with trans patients and knows all of the all the lingo. Lingo.

MattieWhat I would like to throw in there is that Miranda is talking to Ben as her husband, not as a doctor. Yes, good point. Yeah, because, and is using that language for her husband's benefit. Like, she is perfectly clinical in the room, and like, despite the fact that they're all family in the room, she is professional. Out there, she knows how her husband is, right? They've been married a long time and how he reacts. So she, I think, uses that language in a way to help him understand, not because she is ignorant. You know what I mean?

AlexAnd how does Ben react?

MattieTerribly.

AlexYep.

MattieOh, he, one of the lines he says that irks me is, that's my brother. He's been my brother. It must be a joke. He's doing this to mess with me. And he goes and bursts in the room and says, you're doing this to mess with me, aren't you? and his sister just gives him this face his sister starts crying and ben storms out of the room well after he says we've been bonding since we were five we slept in the same room together

i told you all my secrets why didn't you tell me mine and miranda says because she wasn't ready yet And Ben does not accept that. Like Ben is.

AlexThis was a hard one for me to watch because Ben as a character is, you know, a wonderful, empathetic person, but does get set in his ways. not in a like conservative like this is how things should be but just a very straight guy type type of thing like he can't even like he is transphobic in the he is scared of toxic i think uh a lot of

Mattiehis earlier character is very macho toxic yes masculine and i think the the problem is is that he blames their father's death on why his sister wants to do this and doesn't take it for my my sibling has been scared to tell me because we were both grieving our father like like like if I can relate it to when my mom was going through a lot of mental health issues I waited

to tell my parents or I waited to tell my my grandma while my grandpa was really sick because I didn't want to add another stressor onto the things that were going on in their life. And I think that's honestly for Ben's sister, I think that's reasonable. Like not only is it a reasonable fear, but it's understandable to wait until something like that, like their father's passing,

you know, the grieving process has sort of not dissipated, but like isn't as strong. They don't

Alexfeel as strongly that you know what i'm trying to say help me here and it's it's it's not that she uh spoilers for 10 minutes into the like after the scene we're talking about her name is rosalyn like it's it's not that what it wasn't hard for rosalyn to stay in the closet but it was easier than dealing with the emotional fallout before this. However, she doesn't really come out by choice.

It is a medical situation that kind of boots her out of the closet because, yes, she is taking hormones, but...

MattieThey are black market hormones. Yes. And one of the main reasons that they give in the episode is because she was ashamed of going to the hospital where her brother worked to get hormones. And you're like, she could have gone anywhere. But trans health care is hard to find. And if that's like clearly in the past two episodes, they have shown that that is a place they do have a clinic. And that is a place where trans hormones are accessible. And I feel like the biggest fear was that her brother would find out, you know, because let's face it, all those doctors talk to everybody about everything. Like, that's the big premise of the show is everyone is slept with everyone, has shared everyone's secrets. Like, that is 100% the show.

AlexMatthew, can you sort of give a background of what black market hormones are and how they are still used?

MattieIf someone doesn't have access to hormones in a safe way, they unfortunately go online to try to get hormones from places that are not reputable. And it can do the things that happen to Ben's sister, like cause liver failure, just because it's not prescribed by a doctor. And honestly, there could be anything in the bottles that they're giving you.

AlexAnd unlike in the earlier episode where Donna is taking safe hormones, the consequences of what Rosalyn is putting in her body is not because of the hormones themselves. It is because they're like, it's not like uncut estrogen. She's she's putting a bunch of icky stuff into her body. So it's not like, oh, hormones are dangerous. It's, oh, things you buy off the internet and put in your body via needles or pills isn't a good way to go.

Mattieyeah and then what's great is at the end one of the main doctors from the last episode jackson comes in to start getting her on the process of taking medically approved hormones and one of my favorite things he says is what are we waiting for let's get started and asks her her name she says rosalind and they write it on the chart and that it's just great because it's not While there is still the issue of Ben being unsupportive up until the end of the storyline, that doesn't change at the end of the episode.

Seeing two main doctors again advocate for the patient and make her feel safe is just, it's a great message. People can tear down Shonda, but like some of these episodes are, this is one where I literally wrote down no cons. I had pros and cons lists for every episode, and I think this one hit every realistic bullet point in the trans experience.

AlexYeah, because the way that Ben reacts to his sister, while that obviously sucks and would suck in real life, it's kind of reasonable to just have that initial shock. And you're going to tell us about how that eventually sort of resolves.

MattieI'm sorry, I am?

AlexWell, no, don't they, doesn't the story continue in the spinoff of Grey's Anatomy Station 19, which is about fires?

MattieYeah, so they do bring back Ben's sister, which I think is great. And at that time when they bring Rosalind back, it's in Station 19, which is Grey's Anatomy spinoff. never seen it. I know it's about Ben being a firefighter because they wanted to take a main character from Grey's, get him on the show so they could bring more viewers there, blah, blah, blah.

Capitalism. Yeah, but so what happens is during the COVID season, you know, all families get together and like Ben and Miranda have a bunch of kids. So while they are both handling COVID and working with people. Rosalind, Ben's sister, is not a doctor, so she comes and takes care of their kids. And it becomes one of the main characters. And she is also played by a trans actress.

Whereas in the earlier episode, because the actor hadn't transitioned at all, it was played by a cis male actor. But her name is V. Vivo. if I'm pronouncing that correctly, that is the actress in Station 19 who plays Ben's sister.

AlexWait, she's a main character?

MattieNo, she's a recurring character.

AlexDang, that's so cool.

MattieAnd she was in Pose as well.

AlexOh, I think I know who you're talking about. Oh, dang, she's awesome. Oh, that makes me, oh, Aunt Rosalyn.

MattieSo they, yeah, so they even, when they move forward they cast a trans actress and um ultimately how it ends up is that ben obviously has accepted his sister welcomed her back into the family and just becomes a big part of the family i don't know because i don't watch station 19 i don't know if it took until covid for that to happen but honestly that would be like realistic you know i looked it up but despite

Alexher not appearing on screen i believe like they reference in gray's anatomy rosalyn like coming for dinner and stuff like that and occasional and and like ben starts to get her pronouns right it was more of a like like this is why i agree with you you in that the this storyline is like the most realistic and has very few cons because sure initially ben reacts with the problematic

shock but very quickly is you know it's like it's it's tough it is tough for the entire family it is tough for rosalyn you know and i really like how they return to the normal normalcy of like being giving each other shit and stuff and it's it's very sweet because some I mean even even if you are 100% accepting of trans folks and the trans people in your family if you've spent you

know 25 years with a person who's been presenting as a different gender like you're you are gonna mess up names and pronouns sometimes it it happens we've talked about it a lot yeah and that's the

Mattiepart to me that stood out as the most realistic is that it took ben time but in the end ben accepted her and that for for my life experience that's that's what i like to tell a lot of people on the internet when they're when they're spiraling like on uh youth on tiktok and instagram i'm like Like, you know, it took my parents a year to even start getting on board. And Ben's brother was 38 or something like that.

So, like, that's realistic, understandable. And I love that they followed it through and tied it up in a, like, that's the most positive trans representation I have seen in Grey's Anatomy. Well, spoilers! Well, spoilers. But I think this is one of the best episodes if you want to check out. And it can actually be a standalone episode, too, honestly.

AlexShould we get into the... Well, I mean, now I know that Rosalind is a reoccurring character on Station 19, a show that no one watches. But there are two Grey's Anatomy characters who end up being kind of part of the main cast.

MattieOh, yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it.

AlexTell me about Parker.

MattieParker. I love, okay. First of all, I love the actor slash musician that plays Parker, and I follow him on Instagram. Graze did him dirty, but Graze did him dirty.

AlexWell, did him dirty or his character dirty?

MattieBoth, man. Both.

AlexOkay, okay.

MattieAll right. Season 14, episode 9. The title is a phone number, so 1-800-799-7233, and it aired in 2018.

AlexI guess this is one that actually isn't a reference to any sort of transition.

MattieWell, just a little content warning. We are not going to talk about it, but if you decide to watch this episode, it is based around marital abuse, specifically battery of a husband beating a woman, and that number is the hotline for where they can get help.

AlexRight, right. But it does not have anything to do with the trans storyline.

MattieRight. But just in case you're going to check out the episode, be warned that that is what happens. so Parker is an intern whose storyline isn't based on the character being trans he is played by an actual trans actor and musician who by the way does great covers of uh the Grey's Anatomy

Alexsoundtrack so go check that out easy buddy you're so thirsty for this guy I just love that they use

Mattiean actual trans actor who was my age and transitioned along the same time that I transitioned and I got to see it live. And I think that's why this is one of my, even though it's a tiny side storyline, I think that's why I relate to it the hardest. Actor's name is Alex Blue Davis.

And that's one of the big pros is that it is played by a trans actor and his main storyline isn't about being trans, although it is in this episode. But for the rest of the arc, he is actually stealth to his co-workers and stealth is means that you're not out as trans

Alexi like to hey it could be someone's first episode hey this is a weird one for your first episode not if you're a gray's anatomy fan oh that welcome gray's fans is there a name for um like is there a name for the fandom uh gray's babies great gravy no graybies are the cats

Mattieno no like great gray's babies that's what the the popular pod that i listen to i'm sorry the the pod yes called the on call room which has brought me back to my love of Grey's Anatomy um they they call their fandom the Grey's Babies BBYS I do like it's it's a really

Alexgood podcast but all right let's talk about the actor you're apparently super horny for uh or rather stop talking about the actor and talk about the character of Parker the intern Parker the

Mattieintern is just as uh you know stuff like emptying bedpans and putting in IVs and and isn't really a big character because he's one of the new sets of interns so if you're a fan of gray's have seen it the new interns come in we usually hate them all they have a couple big storylines by the end we like them and then they get written off the show or die that's just what happens to the interns

Alexregardless of their regardless of their race or gender they're usually killed off so the two

Mattiethings are uh parker is uh he's working in the military or worked in the military as a computer scientist and this is a season finale in which the hospital has been hacked by computer men computer men computer terrorists

Alexcyber terrorists cyber terrorists there we go they I'm sorry tell us how tell us how Dr. Parker helps with the computer men okay the cyber

Mattieterrorists the FBI comes in and they can't do anything so Parker and Miranda are queen of trans rights at this point Parker's like I can hack it faster than they can and she goes don't tell me how just do it because what's happening is the cyber terrorists are shutting off medical equipment that is important like you know life support machines they're they're locking doors so that patients can't get into ORs because at this point you know everything is over like tablets because it's 2018 so everything is technology basically

like the the doors lock automatically from inside and because they hacked into the system yep i i'm

Alexsorry i gotta get out of my system if you're listening to this and like well that makes no sense you're right the whole hacking things make no sense it just is it is a storyline they ran

Mattieout of storylines for big catastrophes happening at the end of the season because what they do is have big catastrophes happen at the end of the season and they they ran out they ran out and

AlexThey're like, we need some baddies computer bed. And that's what they settled on.

MattieAnd while this is one of the dumbest, lamest finale storylines, this tiny subplot, I think, is pretty good. Because the pros aren't, like, normally the character is not out to any of the other interns. It's not about him. The work he does is not about him being trans. like his capability to be a doctor and his work in the military ultimately what he does again makes no sense hacks into the system overcomes the cyber terrorists

and saves the day for the hospital would you like to talk about the part that they gloss over alex because you have stronger opinions and feelings than i do about this

AlexI sort of have strong feelings about the way Grey's Anatomy portrays the American military. It's not quite glorified, but it really glosses over what it's like to be a trans person in the military, which I wouldn't say, like, why don't they get into that? except parker is like a big part of his personality is being in the military and

at this point in history it wasn't oh it was 2018 yeah so so trans people i believe weren't able to serve at that point well or out trans people weren't supposed weren't so it was a don't ask don't tell kind of thing no it was well it was trump's thing of saying uh uh like oh oh no trance in the military and uh it uh i i don't know support the troops hate the military that that's

that's my thing and i guess i've always been a little squicked out by that not not just with parker but with one of the main characters owen oh and the other main character teddy i i just

Mattiewe can get into that that's a different podcast but yeah just to say that they handle the military storylines poorly in gray's anatomy and unfortunately they do that with alex sorry with parker because uh at the end of the scene after he saves the hospital from the cyber attack i can't

Alexnot laugh i'm sorry yep after he uh stops the bad computer men miranda asks him how did you know how

Mattieto do that because she didn't want to know at first because obviously they were going around

Speaker Athe fbi and it was illegal okay now did you really hack into the dmv why would you do that because my old license referred to me as female and the dmv where i was living wouldn't change it So I did.

I'm a proud trans man, Dr. Bailey. I like for people to get to know me before they find out my private medical history.

MattieAnd Miranda shakes his hand and says, of course. And then she says, of course, I support you. Thank you for telling me. Because he says he doesn't. He basically says, like, I am telling you because I trust you. I don't like that to be the first thing that people know about me. And she understands that he would like to keep it stealth and under wraps. And then she does the thing you don't like where she says, thank you for your service about the military thing.

But other than the dumb plot and the military thing, I don't know. it was nice seeing someone my age who had transitioned at my age be in the show and like to follow that storyline however where this episode falls flat is that they literally have him in two other episodes and then write him off the show so like not that they needed to explore his transness but they like made him a main character and then we're like meh we're done

Alexwith you he really felt like a token i don't know but like they didn't i would argue in that

Mattiestoryline he felt like a token but before then he was just one of the interns so he wasn't a token it was just like they used him for that storyline and the the moment that i appreciated sorry i know

Alexi'm talking a lot um but i just i just want to no no talk away the the moment that i really

Mattieappreciated is when he tells dr bailey you know i don't i don't come out to everyone that's not the first thing i want people to know about me but dr bailey i am a proud trans man basically i'm

Alexyou know i like i i am out but i would like it if people didn't immediately think about what's

Mattiein my pants before anything else well also it's i i see it as a like i am out and i trust you with this information because i understand you respect me as a doctor so i think that give also gives it

Alexlike a little more gravitas you know yeah yeah that that part is really good i i just i i he is I am all for committing. I wouldn't say that all federal laws are just. So I don't have them. I don't really have a problem with, let's say, breaking into the DMV and changing your license plate to it or license to the correct status.

It just left a bad taste in my mouth because they don't even talk about like there's there's like if you have one line about not wanting it like if you have the line about yeah the dmv messed up and it's like you're just gonna gloss over about all the things that the military does

Mattieto trans people that's if that's the i mean they had to focus on that hacking yeah they just they couldn't computer men they couldn't take away from the bad computer men

Alexthe next character and final character we are going to talk about i've actually never seen an entire episode with them in it but i already have some reservations about this

MattieAnd this is where I am going to argue with you. But, but also, since we're talking about the evolution, and like, of the characters, what I what I do like, obviously, my favorite episode was the one about Ben's sister, because that was focused on main characters. And that's the one arc that they did with a main character, and they stuck to it, as opposed to being the token trans episode. But I do see them after that making progress because, again, Parker's whole thing wasn't the token trans storyline.

That moment was, but that wasn't his entire character.

AlexYou just think he's hot.

MattieA little bit, yeah. But no, I do not agree that it was handled well.

AlexIt was fine. I realized also, though, you forgot one episode and... What? I skipped it? No, there's a... Oh, gosh, I should find where it is. But there was a non-binary patient at one point, but it really wasn't that much. I mean, it was obviously so much of it, like, or rather, it was such a minor plot point that you may have forgotten. They just were in a car accident and like one of the doctors ends up correcting their pronouns to some of the other doctors at some point.

And that's pretty much it, which is pretty cool, except that they kind of have a stereotypical non-binary look. However, I thought they were really hot.

MattieWell, I think I wanted to do transcentric episodes. That's why. If it was like two lines like that, that would be different. but like main character breakthroughs like like main trans issues i wasn't just going to do like a throwaway line because there was also another episode like that um i just wanted to talk about

Alexthe person you thought was hot you're just a little jealous is that what you're saying that's literally all this is kind of jealous yeah yeah all right let's let's talk about a character I am not jealous of.

MattieAll right. Here we go. Here we go. Yep. Kai Bartley, a.k.a. ER Fightmaster, the first non-binary actor to be a full-time cast member on Grey's Anatomy. Lots of buzz around this. The episode we are focusing on is season 18 episode 13 put the squeeze on me which this one has absolutely nothing to do with

the episode um it just recently aired a couple weeks ago so we are in the current season so if y'all have dropped off and stopped watching the show as a smart person would also if you are watching the show and you are not caught up spoilers for season 18 so if you want to watch it and get caught up, this is where you stop.

AlexIncluding me. That's how much I care about this very, very important content. I am going to be spoiled. Thank me for my service, am I right?

MattieAlright, I'm sorry, I'm done. Tell me about Kai. Kai is a neuroscientist who focuses in research while working on the Parkinson's project with Meredith and Meredith's sister, Amelia. So to just wrap up what's going on in this season, it takes place in a post-COVID world where everyone is vaccinated and better and doing well, so fictitious. Meredith is offered a job not at Graceloan, which is her main hospital,

where she can work in a laboratory to help cure Parkinson's and eventually get money to help cure Alzheimer's. And that's why she took the role. So she works there half-time doing research and as a general surgeon at her main hospital the other time. So this is kind of a weird season going on, But Meredith's team of people that she is working with is the non-binary character Kai, her sister Amelia, and then their boss David, who is the person being cured for Parkinson's.

Parkinson's. So they are all working together in this laboratory trying to figure out how to either cure or regress the progression of Parkinson's, which is a disease that I don't know a lot about, but I believe degenerates your nerves and your bodily functions. So your hands get really shaky. Eventually you can't like walk or swallow on your own. It's a very slow degenerative process. Isn't that what Michael J. Fox has?

AlexI was going to say, this is when people say Parkinson's, they typically think Michael J. Fox.

MattieYeah, and while you can live a long life with it, you cannot be a surgeon with it. And that is why he, Dave, David, that is why David, their boss, because of his giant ego, that is why he wants to find a solution to regress or cure Parkinson's because he wants to be able to perform surgeries again because he is an egotistical bastard. Can I say bastard? He really is a bastard. The reason to explain all

that is because the big moment in the show where Kai actually like comes out so to speak as non-binary and speaks on their transition is Meredith and her boss David have a big fight and Meredith is like, he's such an egotistical asshole. He's trying to control me. I want to leave. I hate this. Meredith only sees the bad things in her boss. And Kai comes in and explains David's behavior to Meredith

and that he respects people no matter what and sees the good in people.

Speaker AIt's triggering. I don't like that word, but how do you deal with him? Well, for me, he's the opposite of triggering. He knew me before I changed my name and my pronouns.

And when I told him my new name, he patted me on the back and he called me brave. And he told me he was proud of me. And he never deadnamed me. He got right on board with my pronouns while my parents continued to insist that it was an impossible adjustment to make.

Mattiethat's the only time to me that they really focus heavily on kai's gender or transition

Alexwhich i would say is is good because that's not their main uh that that's not their defining personality they're a fucking scientist but to defend this character who seems like such a big dick just the biggest gaping dick hole with well he does use the right pronouns was just like okay

Mattielike oh he respects people because like come on come on well i mean it's less about kai uh more about the character uh so maybe you don't want to know because it's more about the episode but if you want me to touch on it to make it a little more meaningful it's because meredith sees her mother in David.

AlexNo, I know. I'm just saying, like, it gave off the impression that, like, I know his character is, like, complex and, like, there's, um, it's, I find him to be an interesting character. But, like, before that, but just having that be, like, Kai's reason for, Kai's explanation for why she likes him is because, oh, I apologize. See, I mess up too. Guy's reason for explaining why they like him is just because they use the right pronouns felt icky. Like, not icky, but just like, okay, like, what a low frickin bar. I don't know, man.

MattieI think it was more about like he is open to change. That's what it is. I think it was like if he respects you, he is open to change. So it was basically telling Meredith, go be a badass bitch, make him respect you, and he will be open to change. So it was as much a story about transitioning as it was about assert yourself.

AlexOkay. All right. All right. That makes more sense as to why they were pleased about such a low bar. Okay. All right. You know what? That makes sense. Thank you.

MattieNo problem. Would you like to delve a little bit into Kai now?

AlexAll I know about Kai is that...

MattieNo, I want to know all your negative thoughts before I get into the positive. I want to... Hit me with them. Hit me with them.

AlexI don't know. I just, the very few scenes I've actually watched with Kai and watched how their character is presented is just such the stereotypical, like, NB character that if someone were to line up all of the doctors, someone would be like oh yeah they're the trans one or they're the non-binary one and like the

which is fine like if you lined me up with my friends it would also be like oh yep they're the nb but i don't know it it feels very much despite the fact that their like character isn't I don't know like like sure they don't constantly talk about being non-binary but there's but they do because uh Amelia who is um Meredith Grey's sister-in-law

is bi and ends up dating Kai and it's very much like oh I'm I'm dating an NB and I don't know Can I interject? Yeah, you've seen all of this, and I'm ready to watch this whole season, but it's just really leaning into the non-binary visual and colloquial stereotypes, I think.

Mattieso the only i'm gonna start at the beginning with kai is right away they introduced kai meredith and amelia walked into the lab and amelia was like oh i read your work on the neuroscience research and blah blah blah because amelia is a neurosurgeon remember gray's anatomy about surgery uh and boning in on-call rooms and and there's lots of boning in on call rooms yes uh so Amelia instantly knows Kai from their work instantly knows their pronouns

introduced Kai to Meredith with they them pronouns and that's it they're not like oh you're that non-binary doctor oh you're that non-binary person they just they don't even go they use they them pronouns nope it's just a ride into it from the get-go no big issues with it and for me that was a big thing that was a big deal like oh what are your pronouns what pronouns do you use no they just go right into it there's no like big hoopla about it you know yes that was good

another pro played by an actual non-binary actor another pro the character is the storyline while I agree there are a lot of tropes and stereotypes about non-binary people, I would say that they walk the line, because I've seen more episodes, it's half and half. So they focus on at work, which they don't do this a lot in Grey's Anatomy. When they're at work, they focus on the science.

when Kai is dating Amelia and out they talk because they are having sex they talk more about gender and sexuality so I I think while I understand you're upset with the stereotypes of the presentation of the character more annoyed I I think how they're handling it is good because that's what you would do and in old greys like the earlier seasons they would be talking about sex all the time in the hospital it would be like gossiped around like when for instance back in

the day when Callie was bisexual everyone knew about it it was a big deal yeah no I was actually

Alexgoing to say I kind of wish they dealt with it the same way that um the producers dealt with two of the doctors who used to be on the show, Callie and Arizona, who are both women, but Arizona was a lesbian and Callie was bi. And Arizona had a lot of biphobia. And there was, they actually really addressed that, like the complexities of being in a gay relationship

when one person is bi and like the negative stereotypes surrounding that oh we can get right

Mattieinto that the oh oh yeah go because because uh so god this is gonna be a hard one to explain just because amelia had a baby with someone else that she didn't want to marry because she's had lots of babies with lots of people no slut shaming and she's not married to any of them because she was married once complicated complicated complicated so she's just looking to be a co-parent have a clean break and start dating and get over the person she recently had a baby with this person

is link he works at the same hospital as amelia he is incredibly transphobic he is that what yeah he is the character that comes at kai like doesn't use the right pronouns is just like of course you choose her and and amelia is like oh i totally see them this is in the notes this is in the notes um and it is just i i don't i don't like that that's what they're doing with the character

but we're not going to focus so much on character arcs it's just like he and again this isn't at work that he does this. This is, he sees Amelia kissing Kai and, like, comes at them. And, at Amelia and Kai. It's a little confusing when you're seeing them, and they, them. Link comes towards Amelia and Kai after seeing them kiss, and is pissed, and just super transphobic, and lashes out,

and, I don't know. I think it's good that they handle all that have all that in there like handle all of that like it's it's toxic but that's how some people are like oh you changed because you didn't want me you don't want to marry me because now you're you're bisexual what you never said that before like and they have they have confirmed that amelia's character is bisexual like years and years and years ago yeah um like i think like the first season she was on the show so like you know a hundred years ago and i just i think

I'm hopeful for the dynamic because again the main focus on Kai isn't that this person is non-binary there are stereotypes around it but I like the separation of at work like maybe there's some light flirting hand touching whatever but it's not like you're my non-binary co-worker who is weird and quirky and like yeah

Alexeven though they are weird and quirky

MattieBut they are, but in their personal lives, right? It's not like a stereotype that like, go, because why would it be? You're a scientist. Like, I think old greys would have handled it differently, where it would have been like, ooh, look at the kooky things this non-binary person does at work. Whereas it's like, you know, this is my apartment, I get to be 100% myself, and this is how I act, this is how I talk about my gender and my sexuality. And I think since Amelia has never been in a relationship like that, discussing that outside of the hospital and in their personal lives is a good way to handle it. Do I love Kai's character? No, but I love the way that they are handling the situation of having a non-binary character on the show. Does that make sense?

AlexIt does. And I definitely share the sentiment of I do not like Kai as a character.

MattieWell, I never said I don't like Kai as a character. I'm just not sold on Kai as a character.

AlexRight. Yeah, sorry. I'm just like, I don't enjoy you. But hearing what I didn't realize that it was Link, Amelia's ex, who freaked out and is transphobic because he that's totally like just antithetical to everything we know we've known about him in the past. And it's like, did you really have to shoehorn in a character just to be like, we're going to dress the people are transphobic?

MattieWell, again, that's a little more complicated. I don't want to get into it because no one wants to hear my thesis on Grey's Anatomy. And if you do want to hear my thesis on Grey's Anatomy, please go to, I'll put it in the show notes because I do have a thesis about it.

AlexWait, really?

MattieYeah.

AlexI haven't read it.

MattieWell, I'll send it to you. But sticking to the trans characters, you did have a thing. I feel like we covered everything I was going to talk about until I sum it up. Did you want to talk about the Che Kai comparison or no?

AlexSo Che is a character actually played by Sarah Ramirez, who is also non-binary IRL. And a Grey's alum. Yep, a Grey's Anatomy alum who actually plays Callie Torres. As we mentioned her before, she is the bisexual who is probably my favorite Grey's Anatomy character of all time. But she left and now she is on And Just Like That, which is the sequel, not the reboot, but like the sequel to Sex and the City.

and they're a non-binary character who has some non-binary tropes a little but some some no but that's the thing mostly i just i just despise their character and most people truly despise their character but not for any non-binary reasons they're just so obnoxious and bitchy I really want to do a character study of Che about why they totally suck and how to make a non-binary or trans character incredibly unlikable and why it's okay as long as you do not make it because of their transness.

I don't know if Che is that, but there are definitely some, like, there's a discussion to be had, I think, about a lot of queer characters that suck and how showrunners get flack if a queer character sucks. But it's not because of their queerness. It's just because they're a bad person. They're supposed to be a villain. Again, foreshadowing, foreshadowing for a future episode.

But while queer characters have often been portrayed as villains, we are at a point where, hey, guess what? Trans people can suck on camera sometimes. Oh, well.

MattieIn Grey's Anatomy, they can.

AlexABC 7 Chicago's something or other

Mattiestream it on Hulu

Alexstream it on Hulu Matt thank you so much for taking us through this maze of like hospital drama is there anything else or any other notes on queer characters well there's a lot of queer characters actually in Grey's Anatomy but specifically any trans characters on this show honestly i i do think that from 2006

Mattiethey made great progress it was about like the evolution of how they treat trans characters and while everyone might not be there 100 for kai i think it's good to see representation and i might get flack for this but you know stereotypes are unfortunately sometimes there for a reason and if this is, let's say people are still watching this on network TV and it's, you know, our parents' age, so like close to 60 in their 60s and this is

the first time they've seen a non-binary person on television, they might need those stereotypes to like help them understand. I am going to give it the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to thank you all for coming on this fun Grey's Anatomy trans journey with us and honestly do I hope the show ends yes but if it's gonna keep going I want to see more queer positivity because that's what that's what we deserve you know and and if a show like this

can get it right then other shows should should get it right too well this has been a sure has

Alexbeen an episode of Two Headed Girl and as a reminder you can find us at patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm and in a couple weeks we're going to have a story that i am putting together about jt leroy or leroy and if you don't know who that is buckle in my friends wow

Mattiewe'll uh we'll put a little preview maybe in the show notes of what they can expect

AlexYep. And hey, I know that it is just, I mean, it's always rough, but it is a rougher time than usual to be trans in this country. And especially if you're a trans kid listening out there, we've got your back.

Mattieso does nestle she just yelled and uh uh once again in the show notes i will uh put in some links on where you can go to help trans youth right now uh donate um call your your representatives all that stuff will be there and i recommend checking out the trevor project because they have the best resources for trans youth at this time stay safe out there keep your heads up and know that there are elder trans who are supporting you and want you to be here

Alexness would you would you like to say something to the people yes nestle you uh had uh nestle this is probably one of the first times you were watching Grey's Anatomy with us in our home. How did you like it?

Were you getting some good belly rubs? Yes?

MattieShe has no comment at this time.

AlexWow. Nestle said don't say gay. No trans rights. No belly rubs, no trans rights. You heard it from the cat's mew.

31. Love The Soap, I'm a Clean Boy 0:00 / 01:32:43