21. Hodgepodge
2021Show notes
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesAlexWelcome to Two Headed Girl, a show about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. I'm Alex Cox, and you will be hearing from my spouse Matt Cox in a few minutes. I just wanted to make a quick note letting you know that this episode is kind of a hodgepodge of recordings that we did in London when we were visiting some dear friends who were getting married.
And that trip was actually the first time either of us had been in a group of people who weren't predominantly queer, who just did not give any fucks about our gender or sexuality. We were treated like the people we are and felt so loved and accepted. It's not that we thought we wouldn't be, but we expected to stand out and be awkward because that's how, unfortunately, that's how we are at most weddings.
But I think back at this time and it was the last time I ever wore a dress. And it just makes me really happy that the last time I wore a dress, it was amongst people who I was comfortable and safe with. And it was even kind of fun. but also this trip is when I realized I guess how trans I was and it's when I decided I definitely
wanted top surgery and I think it was the first time where both Matt and I felt It's normal. Well, normal for a whole bunch of nerds traveling across continents to be together and geek out. I just really want to thank all of our amazing friends who we spent the week with, and especially thank Adina and Mike Hurley for sharing their special day with us.
I know it's just a small consequence, but you genuinely changed our lives for the better, and we can't thank you enough.
MattieI was just saying yesterday I know I'm not supposed to talk to the audience yesterday we just got back to the States after being in London for a while and I felt so accepted there and I didn't feel like I stood out at all and no one stared and, you know, you and I talked about that a little, and it was just so wonderful, and then
to come back and have people misgender me, and have people clearly, like, look at me, and, like, second guess my gender, and stuff like that, it was just, I was already having a rough day mentally because of the time change and my meds were wonky and it just made it so much worse that it made my day so much worse it was a lot of things but that definitely contributed
AlexI'm just thinking about like I mean obviously all of our friends and stuff know that you're trans and know that we're big queers and like it's not like you were stealth at all in london right you were visibly like transgender queer trans mask like like even androgynous most days and like chose to be and i've never seen you feel more comfortable and and this isn't even amongst friends this is
just out and about yeah and and i was thinking like oh maybe it's pride but like we weren't
Mattielike we didn't even go to pride and like pride was one day it was every single day yeah and we
Alexdid not until the actual pride day we did not see people who were like visible like had queer cues or anything like that right it was maybe it's just the diversity of like london itself
Mattiefor like i mean i don't know because there's so many tourists you mean or like no i mean yeah well
Alexyes but like just because there's so many people from different cultures it's just everybody nobody looks the same and i loved it we were in smaller like areas that weren't like london proper like neighborhoods of london and it was the same and we were in like downtown basic ass areas in london where if we were in downtown where downtown chicago we still get stared at sometimes and
Mattieit's not the end of the world oh so like yeah because we were in the equivalent of the we're like uh magnificent mile and like times square and yeah and we would have gotten stairs there
Alexfor sure yeah time score not so much just because everybody's mad about something else and everyone's but like you know like when you're just you get so used to just getting like low-key stairs or low-key like people pausing before they say sir or ma'am and i'm saying i'm saying this like just me that you start to notice when you just completely blend in and I I didn't get
Mattiemisgendered well I did once and it was only when I got in a cab with you I think and that's cut or um an uber with you and that's just because it's under your name yeah yeah so it's like so they just assume and they say ladies you know no no no you know what it was it wasn't that it
Alexwas when we were um yeah and we just looked we looked real gay like typical lesbian yeah i don't
Mattieknow how to not say that offensive but it didn't bother me because it was so brief yeah and there was no and it was a stranger but i mean i don't know there were a lot of circumstances but it
Alexdidn't bother me you know yeah this poor guy rushing people in and out is like you know i i I know what you mean. And I could tell
Mattiea photo booth at the wedding. I know we're not supposed to. There was a photo booth at the wedding and he was trying to get everyone's pictures before the end of the night to put in the, what do you call the book? I mean, it's like a photo.
AlexIt was like a guest book, but slash photo album type thing, I guess. Yeah, it was a guest book. It was so cute. But I think the only reason we noticed is because by the end of the trip I was so used to just like neither of us were gendered very often at all like after that's the thing while we were in in London it wasn't like I was constantly like gender gender gender we didn't have to that's like we just felt
Mattielike we belonged and I feel like here even at work where I'm widely accepted it's just something like not so much when I'm in boys town because it's boys town but even at work it's just kind of something that's always in the back of my mind it's been like whiplash it's almost like
Alexreverse culture shock it is I'm like everything's bad here like um I did a show the other night and then suddenly I realized I I mean I was a little bit under dress under dress but I mean I always am like um I did a live show with um Savannah and I did um my our show uh roboism with our friends um friend shipping and everyone was all tarted up and and looked great and normally I and and like
it's my thing like my tarted up is just like putting on deodorant and putting on cover-up but i was just so and a nice button-up well this thing i was wearing my i was wearing my button-up and i was i was wearing shorts but even if i was i realized if i was wearing nice jeans and a nice button-up and like i would have clearly been the odd one out of these three women who i love and respect this is not you know that this is not about them but i was just i i was suddenly suddenly like, oh, I care about what?
I was like, what? Why do I care?
MattieMaybe just because you felt like you stood out. I mean. But like not even.
AlexThat's the thing I always do. And I know that. And I've stopped caring or maybe not stopped caring, but like just suppressed it so much, you know? Whereas like in the past two weeks, I've like oscillated vastly between wearing very feminine clothes and very masculine clothes and been comfortable every single time and not question it and it's man this this this conversation has become more about me than you
Mattieuh that's okay because we're both exploring and both queer and it brings a lot of topics to mind um i just want to say what i know since you were bringing up uh like fancy clothes and stuff not about my suit because my suit was awesome and I look great and it doesn't matter if I look super masculine or androgynous I just looked great in it in general. Can you talk about the shoes for a second?
The fancy shoes you made me get were on point. They were on point. I tried really
Alexhard not to use you as a dress up doll for the things I wish I could wear but I was very adamant about you getting
Mattiethese shoes i actually really like them and they were pretty comfy yeah and you're like i can't you
Alexwere like me like can't i just wear you you do have like very nice um like hipstery dress up they're not like sneakers but they're i don't know when you think like hipstery cool dress up like queer eye casual but nice shoes that's that's what they are whereas these were like tan wingtip gorgeous leather shoes and i don't like wearing leather and i i've got complicated feelings but i was like you need these shoes just you're getting these shoes and they ended up being
amazing they were they were perfect and they do they like and you're not technically you're supposed to wear them with a darker suit technically but i was like no they're perfect they're perfect you're wearing them bringing it back around i'm sorry i'm i i never i we've talked about this i never think it's productive to say I told you so but I do just want it on the record that I was so
Mattieright about these shoes you know what I agree with you thank you here comes the cat again okay just talking about you feeling out of place being um not dressed up among your friends it's funny because when we were out like I was a little self-conscious like when we went out with all um all of your podcast buds are podcast buds yeah there are um because i want it i guess
because i wanted to make a good impression so it was only like it was only like when we went out to dinner and stuff like that but it was funny because i i was specifically like looking at what the guys were wearing and i was like oh i not that i needed to but i was like i fit in with the dudes they just wear t-shirts and shorts like when i wear a button-up it looks like i'm trying and it
Alexwas so no offense guys but we're all well that's the thing it is shocking that um we i i because we all like buy each other shirts and stuff for our shows i'm i was shocked that none of us uh matched one day that we were out it was it was funny it was really funny but it was it was really just like over the week i could see you not just like because you were meeting a lot of my friends for the first time and i i mean i don't spend a lot of time in person with my friends really
it sucks but it's you know that everyone lives all over so yeah but um and people notice too that you were slowly becoming less afraid of them and i'm still afraid of them because i look up and love all of them so much not afraid but shy I know shy in fact I've always okay you
Mattiewould never know it but I've always been a shy person shocking shocking and yeah I think that
Alexand that's the thing is like I am less shy but always much more anxious and terrified of people
Mattiethan you yeah but you've known them no i mean in general no yeah yeah that's true but yeah i know that we've like gone all over the place but it's just the crux of the matter is that we felt much more comfortable with our gender and gender expression in london than we do here and it was like whiplash coming back to chicago and it freaking sucked balls it did can i say that yes Okay, it sucked balls.
Yes.
AlexWell, that's the thing is you have, I don't want to say that your dysphoria is mild, but it is.
MattieIt fluctuates between mild to moderate. Yes.
AlexYeah, it's not, it's, you, exactly. And obviously that can, that could change at some point, but.
MattieI felt barely, just because I was like packing, which I know concerned you. only for safety for travel but it was because I felt confident it wasn't even like a masculine thing it was just because I felt confident in terms of dysphoria it wasn't because I felt more dysphoric it was because I felt confident in my queerness not just like I felt confident in my
trans masculinity and being fluid and it just it just added to my confidence because I was like yeah I can wear and do whatever I want
AlexI know that a lot of people listening to this are going to be mad at me for always trying to encourage you to be more genderqueer than like a binary trans man and it is and and people are like in your support groups online are like you know fuck her it's it's not her body and I agree fuck me it's not my body um but just seeing you represent yourself not as not as non-binary because um but more fluid just just like like you're like I'm gonna
wear my pink gauges today I'm gonna wear like you just gave no fucks and you were just so happy and you thought you looked good every day and normally you ask me a million times of like uh like basically can you see my tits like does can you like tell that if i'm packing or not like are my can you see my hips whereas like that maybe have you did that like once or twice with my suit and with like when i just wore a t-shirt without a bra yeah sports bra yeah and but that was even at
the beginning also the suit doesn't even count because of course we're all i was like can i was like oh can you see my arm fat like where's oh it's just how much of my neck fat is it's stressful for everybody yeah yeah yeah that yeah that doesn't even count because we were both like oh god where's my makeup um yeah can you see this is it uh oh god acne This is our last night in London
MattieIt is I'm so tired but I promised I'm so tired To record this because Alex As you know can be very insistent
AlexThis was your first international trip
MattieIt was my first international trip I I know you're going to ask how it was So I'm going to Matt Splane It was wonderful It was one of the best places I've ever visited Every single day I was happy And I had so much fun And the only time I did not have fun Is when I was running for half an hour In dress clothes In fancy shoes In almost 90 degree heat To catch a taxi But other than that literally
Almost every moment except for when I've been briefly hangry. I have been so, so happy. What about you?
AlexI don't have words. I know that you think, like, this definitely was a wedding where it was all, like, my internet friends and people have, like, become real-life friends. And we're in London. And I've never felt safer in a city. And not just because we're amongst friends, but we spend a lot of time just hanging out by ourselves, being tourists.
And I know that it's Pride Week and there was the Pride Parade.
MattieIt was a big deal. It was awesome.
AlexIn Chicago, it's just Boys Town. And sure, there's rainbow flags every once in a while. But here, it's just everywhere. Like, that crazy moment, I still feel like it was a hallucination when we did a crosswalk, and then there was the trans symbol as we crossed the street. Yeah. Instead of a walking man, there was the trans symbol.
MattieAnd then if you kept, like, and it would flash, like, the lesbian symbol, and then it would flash, like, the heterosexual symbol and stuff like that. I didn't even see that. Yeah, it changed. It was just pride is what we experienced of it a hundred times bigger here. Like every business, everywhere. If there wasn't a rainbow flag, Alex, you said it best. If there wasn't a rainbow flag out for pride, it was like you weren't hanging an American flag for the 4th of July.
It was like that big a deal. And that made me feel incredibly confident and happy. as well, on top of being with our friends who just...
AlexOh, you called them our friends.
MattieOn top of being with our friends who just made me feel completely amazing and accepted and like I could be my weird queer self because sometimes it's just safer and easier to present as FTM, like strictly masculine. but to present as trans mask and even like more androgynous and just to get called sir and chap
and gentleman and it was just so every experience I had was so great and I felt comfortable everywhere and I felt so it was so welcoming not only when it was pride day but like every day of the week we were here and and I thought it would be just among our friends but it was everywhere I felt like both of us were accepted everywhere and it was a wonderful wonderful experience no one gave two fucks no one gave two fucks I like traveling but I forget how much I like
traveling with you oh traveling with you is the best part like I really needed a break and so did you we were both kind of at our mental breaking points at our jobs and this trip we could not have asked for a better trip but we couldn't have asked for a better trip and not only to have a wonderful trip but to be accepted for completely for who we are in every situation this is the
Alexfirst time made it amazing this is the first time this has ever happened in my entire life So, I mean, we can say it. We went to the new Mr. and Mrs. Mike and Adina Hurley's wedding.
And all of, you know, people who I'd actually already met almost everybody just through Apple stuff and through conferences or just them visiting Chicago. but there are a lot of people who I talk to and like work with every day
Mattiewhereas I do not but they know of me
Alexyeah because this is the first time I was meeting them yeah I did not expect this week I expected to have an emotional day seeing our friends get married and like but this this this is a a in our like queer community an unpopular thing to say but i don't think that i am like proud to be gay or queer or whatever the fuck people are calling it today because you know the names change all the time like that's just a boring thing
that I was born that way and it's boring and stupid and I just what I'm proud of is you and what I'm proud of is being able to be with my person and we were around friends who just give zero fucks about what our gender sexuality is they know me as as the weirdo who likes white teslas and scooters and and they just know like you and our cats and that
Mattieyou're a weird barista and like that sounds weird i'm a weird barista i'm a creeper like i'm a big weirdo and i love cats and i'm married to you yeah and and well and that's the
Alexthing i guess it's hard to because and a bunch of people said like i feel like i know you even though
Mattiei mean but not in a weird way it was in a great way because it made everything a lot more comfortable but what i think you're trying to say in between the sobs is that in this community because we were with podcast people and podcast friends and generally in those situations you you feel like you there's so much emotional labor and emotional stress and there's little things that get to you but because we were both so accepted and no one
gave any fucks and we were just seen as people we weren't seen as those queer people we were seen as people we were seen as friends we weren't seen as oh those token queer friends we were seen as friends and people and I think that is what's
AlexI'm like I don't want people to feel bad like i really like that there's people that say that they look up to us and stuff like that but to just be silly amongst friends and to not feel self-conscious for me to not feel self-conscious in a dress and you who it looks so fucking dapper in oh my gosh we don't have to talk about no i want to tell how amazing you looked in your suit everyone can see the
Mattiepictures and this is a babe it's a podcast no they can't okay first of all you have a bunch of followers friends on social media they all have my twitter they will there will be the pictures i just wanted to say how great it felt to be out and proud and also just to be to be around and be proud but not necessarily have to be recognized as trans and
just be seen as any other person was what no matter who I was around or where I was is what was best for me I mean besides spending time with my best friend and meeting a bunch of new friends and becoming closer with them. Like, all of these things, all the good things. The queer on top of the friendships, on top of the not needing to be known as queer and just being able to be a person.
Alexlike i i always tell people that just because you like someone's work does not mean that you're going to like that you're not i always tell them you're not friends you're not friends and I didn't know I didn't want to be these because I'm so bad I didn't want to be anybody's
friend I didn't I I just enjoyed their work but somehow there became it was like oh they're weirdos they're just like me and it doesn't matter I like all of our backgrounds are different and
Mattieyou're all your own special brand of weird we are and i don't i remember actually mike was one
Alexof the first people who i talked in depth with like he brought that up tonight because um you you went to the bathroom and uh they're like Mattie is really opening up and i'm like yeah they're a little less afraid of you and i
Mattieyou're i've never seen you so happy well yeah it was great it was great to
Alexi have never seen you so happy well i i should say i've never seen you so happy among socializing yeah yeah and and like with strangers like because but they weren't strangers yeah well you kept saying that they were strangers
Mattiewell after the first couple days like once once I felt like after the first couple days and just kind of slowly talking and breaking down the walls and getting to know people because they already knew the basics about me from Dubai Friday and the internet and what have you it was just so great and I just felt so accepted and normal and everything was normalized like there wasn't an awkward moment like I think
Tiff said it best is we didn't have to have that small talk because because of the internet we already knew we didn't have to start there we didn't have to start with like so what do you do so what's your favorite color so what animal do you like because we could start with actual human conversations and that made me feel even more accepted and just I could be myself completely and not feel self-conscious whatsoever and you being there that's the perfect scenario that's
the perfect situation because you are my person and my anchor and heaven forbid there were was ever a moment where because I'm very trusting when I meet new people that I have things in common with. I am usually very trusting and if not awkward. But since everyone was awkward, I didn't feel that level of awkwardness. And to have you there were anything to feel weird to me, I would instantly go to my anchor. So because I had all of the situations were aligned so perfectly
And that is why I felt so happy and so at home.
AlexIt was like every day you opened up a little more. I don't know.
MattieYou felt like you were around your people.
AlexAnd I thought.
MattieAnd you were.
AlexAnd the thing is, though, I am around my people a lot. But increasingly, I don't want to. I don't know how to. I don't want to be a bitch. but like increasingly I don't want to like go to a flashy game thing and like we sat and played Pokemon in the park and we had lunch and I read Roxane Gay and I like her new book and
Mattiewhy am I so happy you're allowed to be this happy babe it's because you had a listen it's because you had a vacation and you had time off and you didn't have to do work and you spent time with people you love and you felt accepted and you just had fun you didn't have to worry about anything and you had fun and guess what you got to plan your fun you got to decide what kind of fun you wanted to do
and you just
Alexdid it we just went out and had fun every day
Mattiemental health day the way we wanted to every freaking single day
AlexI know every day I was like
Mattiewe're just gonna do with amazing people I just feel like I don't
AlexI know that it's no one feels like they deserve to be happy but I I don't understand
Mattieyou don't
Alexwhy people are so good to us
Mattiebecause you're a good person
Alexno you're a good person
Mattiewell maybe we're good people together can we be good people together
AlexI try to be but I don't know
Mattielisten to me
AlexI'm not used to being happy it's weird I'm used to being happy with you I'm not used to being happy with everything
Mattiewell then this was maybe a first among many
AlexI hope so.
MattieI know so.