3. Dorito Body
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Mattie and Alex try to define different types dysphoria while looking back at some of the changes from the last two years.
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieHey, I'm Matt, and this is my voice, two weeks on T. Hey, I'm Matt, and this is my voice, three months on T. Hey, I'm Matt, and this is my voice, six months on T. This is my voice, 11 months on T. I'm Matt, and this is my voice, almost two years on T. I'm Mattie Cox and I'm Alex Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and transitions.
AlexWelcome to Two Headed Girl. I think this is an episode that a lot of people have been waiting for and are very interested in. And it revolves around the topic of dysphoria. Can you explain what dysphoria is?
MattieYeah, of course. So basically dysphoria is the discomfort someone feels with their assigned gender at birth. So when I came out of the womb, I was, it's a girl and wrapped in pink. And later in life, I realized, hey, this isn't me. I don't have the words to describe this, but this makes me feel uncomfortable. And then there are two main types of dysphoria. Social dysphoria is where you compare yourself to others and feel really uncomfortable in the
societal expectations of gender binary. So like when I'm shopping at Target and I'm like, ugh, there's all these pink girl toys and all these blue boy toys. Or when I'm looking at the bathrooms And I'm like, well, why can't there just be an option for, you know, a family restroom or any gender or, you know, any person to go into? and comparing yourself to like cisgender men so men that are born male and always present masculine
and feeling uncomfortable feeling different wanting to almost like wanting to be like them and then physical dysphoria is when you have discomfort with certain parts of your body So like for me, it's my chest. Until my voice dropped, it was definitely my voice.
Before there's like fat redistribution, it was my hips.
AlexAlso, everybody experiences dysphoria in different type of ways. Some people can just have social dysphoria. Other people just body dysphoria. And not just trans people have dysphoria.
MattieYeah, it's important to point out that you don't need dysphoria to be trans.
AlexThat as well. In order to alleviate dysphoria, a lot of folks choose to what's known as medically transition. And we're going to focus on FTM transitions, female to male, just because neither of us have a woman's experience about transitioning. But we'll definitely have someone on in the future to talk about that.
MattieThe first step in medically transitioning for me was getting on testosterone. And testosterone is a hormone that occurs in every person's body, but at different levels in the male body as opposed to the female body. Basically, when I started taking testosterone, it would lower my estrogen levels and give me the testosterone levels of what society says is a typical male. And I was distributed that for my doctor, my endocrinologist, which is the doctor that I see at Howard Brown Health in Chicago, who, you know, checks my blood pressure, my cholesterol, make sure everything is healthy before they add that testosterone into my body.
AlexHow do you get testosterone inside of you?
MattieAh, well, I do a subcutaneous injection, which means I take a needle and I stick it into the fat of my tummy. There are also intramuscular injections, which is where someone takes a needle and basically stabs their thigh and it goes directly into the muscle. And then there is another one where you get stabbed in the fat of your butt. And that is also subcutaneous, which means it goes into the fat tissue.
AlexFor you, the reason that you do the tummy one is because you are very tiny. And if it was my body, I would probably do the butt shot or the intramuscular straight into the thigh shot because I have way more squish.
MattieExactly. Yeah.
AlexCan we talk about the very first time you went to see your endocrinologist at Howard Brown and how you were pretty OK?
MattieI was terrified. I was okay because I feel like this is the first time that I did more research than you. And what really put me at ease and both of us at ease, I think, is that she mentioned that she had patients that were bipolar. She knows how to manage the changes. so she's like we're going to put you on a low weekly dose so that you don't experience the hormone crashes of someone who gets it bi-weekly or every three months or something like that
and we'll you know adjust if your mood is out of whack but basically she was like here you go have any concerns and that was it I started testosterone that day
AlexI remember being so scared so excited and so scared for your first appointment and I've just heard so many horror stories about doctors telling people about hormone replacement therapy and I really liked how she said yes I have many patients who have a severe mental illness other patients who are bipolar and we just adjust with the changes and like I remember I I was
worried that you were going to have mood changes and um more outbursts I've had mood swings but only
Mattiewhen I've had my period my mood swing has been the worst and I've had it twice since I've been on T, so that still sucks and is a regular thing. But I think my mood swings are the biggest when that happens, and other than that, I'm pretty stable.
AlexI went into this with a lot of misinformation that most people have, that the testosterone or tea that most people call it, would make you super moody, would make you more toxic in a masculine way. Like you'd put on an Ed Hardy shirt the same day and be like, yo, sup? And
Mattiewhich is hilarious. But a lot of people have that misconception.
AlexAnd the doctor that you had is an absolute outlier, as is Howard Brown, which is a free clinic, but they also take health insurance. So if you're in Chicago and you're queer, Howard Brown, awesome. Check him out. And our appointment would, and I say our because you made me feel really involved in the process, which I don't think you had to do.
MattieWell, I mean, you were anxious and I wanted to put you at ease. And also you would be there taking care of me if any drastic medical things had happened. I basically had the easiest, I was very lucky with my medical transition. It went very smoothly. And still to this day, I have the same doctor and she is amazing. Like I have had no periods of instability because of
Alexmy testosterone. I'm actually ashamed to say that a part of the reason I was so scared was because I thought that I would be kind of losing my partner's body that I had known for so long. And I don't mean in like a gross sexual way, but it's essentially second puberty. And it's not just physical changes or overt physical changes, like your scent changes
and the way you carry yourself changes. And I just feel like such a jackass now.
MattieHere's the thing. People's insides, their personality does not change, especially if they know what to expect. Like, I feel like that's a misconception with a lot of people.
And that's just really not like your scent does change. I feel like all the changes are so gradual that you really had time to get used to them. And that's not how it happens with everybody. But my first puberty didn't hit me really hard. So neither did my second puberty. And that it happened gradually. So you were able to accept the changes as they came along. Am I right?
AlexYeah, but it still doesn't feel okay to me. I mean, everybody's different in how they react to their partner transitioning in any way. Like it's like you said, you are still you, but it's, you know, not the same as like changing a job or something like that. But it was a major life thing and I wasn't as prepared for it as I thought I would be.
But I don't think I needed to because they were so gradual.
MattieYeah. So next week, I hit two months on T. Yay! And, like, stuff has definitely been changing. I've been surprised because I'm on a really low dose. And so far, I'm happy with it.
Let's talk about the basic changes.
AlexYeah. Yeah. First, let's get into your voice.
MattieMy voice. That was one of the first things that changed. I was so excited because my voice gave me a ton of dysphoria because it was really high. For reference, when we first started recording two years ago, I was two months on T, I could hit a high E flat, which is almost the highest note at the end of let it go i'm gonna use uh you know just let me go with uh these song references
for how i gauge my vocals and my voice changes and now uh two years on t the highest note i can hit without straining is a b4 which means i can sing most steven universe songs and that's about it and I love singing and it was actually singing and realizing what songs I couldn't sing anymore as my voice lowered really gave me gender euphoria and confidence because I was like
oh crap like now I can sing male parts and songs and this this feels incredible for a while when
Alexwe would do our dumb like karaoke in the car I noticed that you were hesitant to lower your voice it was almost like you were learning to walk again but you were learning to sing again because you felt like you couldn't hit those low notes and now you're belting out the Steven Universe songs
Mattieyeah and it was especially when my voice started cracking at like three months I was like yes I can sound like a pretty pubescent boy when I sing. So two months on T, my biggest source of dysphoria was my voice because it hadn't dropped yet. And now a year later, it's still something that prevents me from being read as male, which is crazy because my voice started dropping
three months it cracked and then it it's started to settle uh it still fluctuates a lot but when I'm relaxed it's lower and I can be completely red as male and lately I've been having a lot of dysphoria for me that is when I'm red as female is when I my voice is higher it's also
Alexnot that I'm thinking of it it's kind of bonkers that we're doing a podcast where you have to listen to yourself uh and constantly you know I well that's an interesting thing where people have just probably heard your voice as it's really high when you're editing your voice does it enhance dysphoria or does it make you feel better because I would assume I guess that seeing the progress you've made and knowing that people other folks can hear the difference
Mattieis helpful yeah it makes me feel a lot better like listening to stuff from when I was two months on T and then it's like very progressive because we've been recording for the past year so just like I'll go to a recording from when I was five months on T and it's not this deep or I'll go to when I was eight months on T. And I'd say my voice has stopped changing.
Body changes. If we're going step by step, the voice changes first. Then you get lots of oil and acne. And I already had adult acne. So I was super worried about this negative side effect. Like honestly, this was one of my biggest negative side effects and has been for the past two years. However, I discovered ProactiveMD and holy heck, two years on T now, I barely get cystic acne. I feel so much more confident about my face, about everything.
And I know it doesn't work for everybody, but get up on that. Right when you start testosterone, make sure you're doing some acne scrubs because let me tell you, it'll make you feel so much better.
AlexLike with anybody who has changes in their skin, as you had higher and higher levels of T in your body, you had to try new things. And it seems like the reason that your face has cleared up is because you're kind of ending your second puberty and your skin is sort of stagnant, you know, where you have less acne than me now.
MattieI mean, yeah, I still have to keep up with the routine, but between one to two years is when the production of oil, like, lessens. And that's, thank God, man, thank God.
Let's talk about changes that you didn't expect me to have on tea. Changes I didn't expect you to have on tea. Yeah, what has happened this past year that you were not expecting after coming out of that first appointment?
Alexmy the thing i didn't expect i suppose i didn't expect to start getting chin hairs at three months on t why didn't you expect that because i didn't expect to like now i have to shave
Mattieif i don't want a little uh shaggy from scooby-doo beard i have to shave every week um i just didn't expect to notice any facial hair growth until way farther because first puberty was pretty mild for me so I didn't expect second puberty to uh to grant me with chin hair so early on well you're just a hairy boy aren't you three months on tea I had three tiny little chin hairs and a scum stash how did you feel about that
AlexAlex? Uh, no, no, no, no. And this is something that was another internal struggle because I thought that this was just transphobia because at first I was really excited for your body hair because it made you so, so happy. But then like you would kiss me on the cheek and I'd be like, ah, no, just because it would tickle. And I finally realized as you have more and more body hair but also you have more of a little beard type thing going on sometimes i have like
Mattie50 little stubbly hairs on my chin that i'm so proud of i am so so proud of like i i was like oh
Alexcis people feel the same way they don't like it when their boyfriends or whatever kiss them and it's all scritchy so now when you you have to basically shave every day or every other day so when you need it when you're having that dysphoria still I'm like yeah go for it or if you want to piss people off who are transphobic absolutely but most of the time I'm like please shave we're going out to dinner with my parents come on and yeah I don't mind it and it tickles I'm wondering like we've talked about this and you probably won't be on tea forever
do you think like once you get your voice to a certain spot you're gonna stop that's possible I wonder if it'll ever stay really deep well that's one of the permanent changes right but
Mattieit's kind of like flexible right now and I know it takes for most people it takes like a whole year for it to like settle and be really deep sometimes it takes longer yeah so I don't know I haven't really like thought about it too much. It's really helpful that you respect when I'm having a bad dysphoria day that I just need those tiny welch in hairs and I am super excited because I recently just started noticing hair in new places and I'm getting fuzzy hair all along my jawline now
and in places that I didn't have it before so like all the way up my legs to my thighs I've got a decent happy trail and like a little bit more of tummy hair. And like I felt so stagnant from year one to year two because a lot visibly doesn't usually change unless you get facial hair. And my dad's not a super hairy dude. It takes him a very long time to get a beard. So just seeing this little bit, these tiny changes and noticing them has made me feel like amazing.
AlexWhen you initially went on tea, it also felt kind of strange because throughout our relationship, I've always looked a bit more androgynous than you, except for the fact that I have hips and boobs. Like, I am a total yeti. It's completely genetic. The same way that trans folks experience hormones differently, everybody experiences hormones differently. And I come from a very Polish family.
All of the women in my family are super hairy. We have thick hair. I have to pluck my chin hairs basically every day. My eyebrows are huge. I would have, I don't know if I would get a unibrow, but I don't want to find out. So it felt like I almost wanted to like just transfer all of my tea to you and be like, here, take God, please take it all.
Like I tried to remove all body hair. I wish I could remove my head hair. It gets too thick and I get too hot and sweaty and I don't like it.
MattieBut I feel so that's like a lot of trans people, though. they're like, here, let me give you my boobs and you give me your Johnson. Like, that's just a thing.
AlexTradesies! Why do you prefer stomach hair over, well, I mean, I guess I know. Because it's cute. Because it's just little
Mattiefuzzies. I don't have very dark
Alexthick hair. So a happy trail, basically. Yeah.
MattieBut it's not like a happy trail.
AlexIt's like a, oh look, there's some little
Mattiefuzz right there. Exactly.
AlexA happy trail. Oh look it, it's so cute. It's a little fuzzy puzzle.
MattieIt's basically a happy trail. Can we talk about now how almost two years ago, we were sitting here in the some office parking lot. We're back here again. And we were speculating if I would still be on tea. And here we are recording in the studio at some office. And I'm two years on tea.
AlexYeah. I, I, hmm, I was about to say that I'm surprised, but I'm not. At the time when you were one year, auntie, I didn't think you would still be taking it now. Did you?
MattieNo, but that revolved around top surgery. Top surgery, which is getting your breasts removed. There's different types. We'll get into that stuff later. But it's usually the second step in medically transitioning that FTMs or non-binary folks go for because it is a big part of physical dysphoria.
AlexThere are more and more people who just do one or the other. They just inject testosterone or they just get top surgery or not at all. We've talked about most of the changes that go with testosterone, deeper voice, body hair, fat redistribution. What are some clitoral downstairs happenings that we won't go into today?
MattieWe'll make a whole episode about bottom dysphoria.
AlexOh, yep.
MattieOr at least part of an episode.
AlexWhat are some of the changes you wanted to happen on T that didn't? Because it's different for everyone.
MattieWell, not necessarily what I wanted to happen that didn't, but what I didn't push myself to do. So I wanted to build muscle because I'm tiny. And I don't mind being tiny, but just to be healthier. So I just started a 30-day workout program. and while I am still on T, hopefully for another year, I would like to build up a routine and have some muscle. And that was actually my goal at the end of one year on T and I just didn't push myself enough. So that's something that I'm looking forward to
and hoping to happen because it'll make my body a little less androgynous and that's where I've been experiencing my strongest bout of dysphoria right now.
AlexDo you think that's also where people clock you the most is how androgynous you look? Because your voice is deeper now. Your hairline is more masculine. But do you think your body shape is what makes some people still read you as a woman?
MattieI think so. And I only think it's because typically men have that Dorito body shape. That's how they describe it. Yeah, you're right. So I think ultimately I would just like to have some broader shoulders to fill out my clothes more. Because not only would that make me feel better mentally, but it's making my body healthier. Like I'm not working out to the point of, oh, I want to be buff.
I'm working out to the point of like, oh, I want a healthier body.
AlexSo once you become a Dorito, you're probably going to have a-
MattieWhich flavor?
AlexOh, which flavor would you be?
MattieI only like the original ones.
AlexOh, huh. What flavor would I be?
MattieYou're weird. You like Cool Ranch.
AlexWell, I am weird. I don't know what that says about the flavor cool ranch, but I'll take it. I'll take it. So once you've achieved your Dorito status and you have top surgery, what are some other changes that you would like to see happen?
MattieI would like a little more facial hair just to see if I even like it. Like, I just I just want to experience it. And then if I hate it, I can just shave it all off.
AlexI really like how you've been playing with your gender because, you know, while I know you don't want to have an androgynous body, you will still dress in a more androgynous way. And sometimes you will present as very masculine, like you won't shave for a couple of days and you've got like, it's not messy. It's good stubble. I still don't like when it's smooshed against my face, but I like how you experiment with your body.
MattieYeah. When I'm.
AlexThat sounded dirty.
MattieNo, no. When I'm feeling more confident and less dysphoric, like even the summer, I was like, oh, I'm going to I'm going to try getting a pink shirt like and I'm going to wear like light pastel colors. And yeah, I do like being more androgynous, like wearing clothes. when I first started transitioning, I would avoid those clothes 100% because I didn't want to be clocked as a lesbian. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just didn't want to
Alexexperience that. You heard it here first, folks. Matthew Cox hates lesbians.
MattieI'm sorry. That is not true. I identified as a lesbian for a very long time. But yeah, so now I'm more comfortable playing with my clothing and stuff like that.
At the end of our first appointment, you and I were still wondering if I would be on T after a year. If once my voice dropped, I would just be done.
AlexI don't think you were going to... I didn't expect you to stop. I expected you to re-evaluate. Honestly, I expected what we are currently doing now. Well, what you're doing and what we're talking about, which is, okay, am I going to continue with T? Am I going to continue with the same amount? How is my transition going? Kind of like that. Actually, now I do know what surprised me. I think I did a ton of research.
And sometimes you are surprised by something more than I am. And I'm surprised about still the lack of, I don't want to say the lack of trust, but your, I am surprised by how hesitant you are to share certain things with me unrelated to top surgery.
MattieLike what?
AlexJust your anxieties about your shots. If a shot made you dysphoric in some way. honestly sharing dysphoria with me in general which you've been a lot better about in the past few weeks or so but it's almost sometimes like I realize you're having dysphoria you're dysphoric before you know it kind of like how I know you're hangry before you know it after you have top surgery if you go off testosterone what sort of changes will your
Mattiebody go through? Well, the change I'm really not looking forward to is that my face shape will change because of fat redistribution. So my face might look less masculine and that's why I'm waffling because I don't care about the body fat redistribution because I've never had like a high percentage of body fat. And if I start to build muscle now, it'll be easier to maintain it. and my voice will still stay low.
I mean, my acne stuff. The two things that I'm dreading the most and that would tip me over to keep being on testosterone would be my facial changes and my period starting again. Like, and I obviously, I know I could go on birth control. There are ways to avoid that. But yeah, that's what I would dread the most.
AlexIt's different for everybody. But what are, like, I don't want to call them consequences, but if you're on T for the rest of your life, what will the side effects be?
MattieI would need a hysterectomy, which I am terrified of, which is removing your uterus and ovaries. And, I mean, going bald is also one, which I don't know how I would look bald, so I'm not sure how I feel about that. And then another one is you can develop like typical cis male health problems. So high blood pressure, risk for heart disease, which already runs in my family.
But there have been guys that there's very little studies, but there have been guys that have been on T for, you know, a decade at least. And those are those are honestly the big ones.
AlexIt's hard to say because, one, again, everybody's different. Two, there are so few folks who have been on testosterone or so few women who have been on estrogen for decades and decades because either they've been closeted and haven't been able to go to a doctor or they are younger like you. I know you think you're old at 29, but, you know, you didn't start taking hormones before your first puberty.
So it's going to be OK, though. Don't worry.
MattieYou know, honestly, I'm not. I'm looking forward to right now. I'm looking forward to getting fit and top surgery.
AlexI find it amusing that you're really down on fitness right now. I mean, I guess it makes me happy in one sense because you're less focused on the aspects of your body that you can't change that make you dysphoric. But, you know, the rest of the world has the same issues, right?
MattieNo, of course I do. And that's why when I start comparing myself to other trans guys who transition faster, like some guys will have full beards at 11 months on T. And like I said, it's different for everyone. But working out for me is is not all about getting a more masculine body. It's really about like I haven't been doing anything but walking for my health. And it's more about I am going to be 30 soon and I want to be in good health. Like honest to God, that's what it is.
AlexI know. And I'm so proud of you for it. And it's interesting to how you are actually still in the best shape of your life. Not because it's not that tea magically made you healthier. But before you didn't really take care of your body because you, I mean, for lack of a better word, you hated it. So it was kind of always in the back of your mind.
MattieAlso, I was so focused on my mental illness that I feel like I didn't put my bodily health first.
AlexRight. Now there's way more of a focus on body and mind health that, you know, I'm also bipolar and the two go hand in hand and sort of the same way like hormones go hand in hand with your other physical health.
Mattiehonestly I feel like this past year we're both the healthiest we've been because we've been focusing on mind and body health and that like we should applaud ourselves for that like holy crap
Alexor oh let's high five yeah let's do it closer to the mic oh yeah good radio I'm really proud of you I'm proud of you too
We really appreciate you checking out the third episode of Two Headed Girl. If you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend or two. You can find us at patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm, which supports the show and the cost of trans health care. The music you heard in this episode is from Seth Boyer's album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends Kathy Campbell, Margaret Dax, Mark Bramhill, Cara Fagan, Kevin Budnick, Merlin Mann, and a very special thanks to Quinn Rose, who mixed this episode.
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oh if well if I could be a pokemon I would be a charmander
Mattiebut because you haven't fully evolved into your super alex state i guess so i think i'd be a
Alexcharmeleon but i would want to marry a ditto i feel like we should debunk like that needs some therapy right there they could transform Oh.