2. Liberate Neopets from Gender
2019Show notes
Welcome to Two Headed Girl: a show about gender, our minds, and all kinds of transitions. Mattie shares his coming out experience, and Alex is kind of a jerk about it.
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieCool, so I'm hangry and I'm tired and I am so not ready to do this, but we're going to talk about coming out.
I'm Mattie Cox. And I'm Alex Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl. This is about my parents. When I first came out to them as gay, it didn't go super great. So at 18, you can imagine how then as an adult coming out as trans, I was very nervous about it.
I waited till I was nine months on T before I came out to my parents, and I did it in definitely not the greatest way, and told them over a text message. And I had wanted to tell them sooner, but I just didn't want to stress them out. But I'm also an only child, and I wanted to keep, like, in touch with them. And it kind of went exactly the same as it went when I came out as gay. Like, my dad was alright with it, not right away, but pretty soon, and it took my mom a while.
And I know I shouldn't make excuses, but, like, either spend time with my parents or always have a shitty time when I go over there, you know? So it's some give and take. So I sent this message after Alex and I had gone to London for our friend's wedding, and I decided all of a sudden that I was just going to come out over text, which actually is how I came out to Alex, too. Just coming out via text message instead of in person all over the place.
This I wrote on July 1st, 2018 at 6 p.m. It says, every time I visit you, there is something I want to tell you, but I don't know how. It is not a bad thing, not to me or Alex, but I am not sure how you will receive it. For the past nine months or so, since October 2018, I have been taking testosterone injections and have been out as transgender at work and to Alex's family. This means I am transitioning from female to male.
I did not make the choice to start hormones lightly and had multiple discussions with my therapist. I don't really expect you to understand or accept me. I guess that's why I've been afraid to tell you. I feel so much more confident and outgoing. I have more friends and socialize more than I have in years because I feel more comfortable in my own skin. To everyone else, I go by the name Matt, which is my chosen name, and I go by he-him pronouns. That is why my voice has been different and I haven't been shaving.
There's so much to tell you and explain, but ultimately I am happy and healthy, and that is the most important thing. I want to help you understand and think we should talk more once you have processed this information. I ended with, you may call me tomorrow as long as you are calm. I love you very much.
Alexthing a lot of people don't think about is how trans and genderqueer folks just constantly need to come out to people around them because it's not like sexuality you know unless you you want to do one of your co-workers which I would advise against you don't really need to talk about it whereas gender it's kind of always going to be there unfortunately because we live in a society that's so gender binary yeah can you explain what being stealth means i didn't know what this
Mattiemeant until a couple years ago um being stealth means that you don't want anyone to know you're trans so if you don't so if you pass as say a cis man or a cis woman and you then you don't want anyone to know that you transitioned or are transitioning. And I know that it's the word
Alexpassing is kind of really controversial, right? I don't know. Yeah, it's kind of gross because it
Mattiemakes it seem like you have to conform to either gender, you know, like there's only two genders and you have to conform. That's what it makes it seem like. But unfortunately, I feel like if you don't present as a binary gender, it's hard to be stealth.
AlexIt's almost the same thing as, you know, being out of the closet. When I came out as gay, well, I didn't even really come out as gay. It just, the gay happened. Like, the queerness just slowly.
MattieThe gay event.
AlexYeah, the gay, it just slowly seeped in to, like, all portions of my life. Even then, you find yourself still having to come out to people. And there is also an element of being able to pass as straight. And if anybody has seen me in life, even when I had longer hair and looked like a more traditional girl or woman, I could not pass as straight.
I could be making out with a guy and people who would be like, she's at least bi. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know. I've been lucky enough that all of the harassment and bigotry I've dealt with has never been at work.
I mean, families and strangers and friends like that sucks. But I've never I've always been safe at work. And with you, you've always been super out and proud when it came to, yes, this is my partner, Alex, and all of that. But can you talk about what it's like sort of having to come out as trans and basically being outed as trans at work?
MattieSo I want to talk about a pet store. So my social security card didn't have my new legal name on it and my driver's license did say Matthew Cox, you know. So it basically outed me because I had to apply using my social security card. Like at most jobs they have to like scan it so you can get pay your taxes and all that kind of stuff. So I was outed to the hiring manager. But it was kind of nice because it was just the manager whereas like everyone didn't have to know.
Whereas at my previous job, I started transitioning after I had already been hired there. So everyone knew. Luckily, it was a safe space. Everyone was cool about it. But like this job, it was like, well, if I wanted to be stealth or needed to be for my own safety, it wouldn't have been able to happen.
AlexYeah, the majority of people who I know who are stealth in certain communities, they move within. It's for safety. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be stealth. I don't want anyone to feel ashamed of that.
Mattieit's interesting that transitioning you have to come out to so many more people like more than just your your family and friends and maybe that's like a misconception because legally for filling out taxes and for like registering for driver's insurance and stuff like that our lease for our apartment all of that had my previous name on it so there were so many people I had to come out to
Alexthat I didn't even think about. I assumed you weren't going to come out to anybody at your new
Mattiejob just because, you know, logistics. Well, for a little bit of backstory, I did have to come out because my trainer today said, you know, this dog is more comfortable around women. So he might be a little skittish around you. So just be careful, like go slow. He doesn't really know me very well either but he's more comfortable around women and this dog warmed up to me really fast and this is something that happened when I worked for a previous dog walking company is dogs in the
notes where it would be like only like men would be really great around me and the owners would be surprised so just like as an offhanded thing I was like oh well he's probably comfortable because I'm trans and like that's all I said and she didn't make a big deal about it and I wasn't like expecting to come out but i was like well i want her to know that this dog is gonna be safe you know what i mean like or the dog feels safer probably because i'm trans does that make sense
Alexso basically a dog outed you yeah and it's happened before I call bullcrap on that though because we have two cats who hate men but we have a lot of friends who are trans and it doesn't matter if they're a man or a woman because trans men are men and trans women are women and they still like trans women
and are still like towards trans guys So I feel like pets and animals are proof that there is no binary. Because maybe that's, so maybe that is why the dog was okay with you. Because you are not on exactly one end of the gender spectrum, you know? Yeah, maybe it's just the way I carry myself. Not like a controlling asshole.
Mattiebut also men just are taught to like take up more space like physically and stuff like that you know so maybe and maybe sometimes that's a little intimidating i've definitely been putting this recording off because it is probably one of the most important things to happen in the last two years other than getting married but I came out to Alex over
text message which is crazy and sounds crazy because we have a great relationship but I had just been like sitting around stewing in all my emotions contemplating it thinking about it for like three weeks there's that moment I feel that most trans people have I can't can't speak for all where they doubt if they are trans or if they're trans enough or if it's all just in their head if it's gonna go away if they're gay whatever and Alex and I have a friend who uh started transitioning
a while ago so I reached out to them and I was like hey so do you think I'm trans basically and talk through all my fears and stuff like that and came up with and will use them as a sounding board to come up with what I was going to say to Alex. It sounds silly, but it felt like a safer... You know what? No, it isn't silly. It was a safer space before I threw, like, not a wrench, but threw, like, a big thing into a very long relationship
that had existed differently. I don't know, we'd always identified as gay, as lesbian, so for me to come out as trans, like, it was a big deal, you know? Obviously. It was my am I trans enough moment, and I think going through that really gave me, like, the courage to come out and change the dynamic of our marriage and our relationship and our friendship because Alex and I are best friends first and married
second which sounds cheesy but it's true and we say it to each other all the time so I needed to just be really sure before I came out to my best friend and I after talking to our friend I felt secure and valid and I decided that I was ready to come out to Alex and of course I did it in a huge epic spewing of my thoughts and feelings for like, you know, a dozen novel-length text messages.
And Alex was at work. They were busy. And then just all of these messages went through, and I think I just stood there like typing them rapidly, not even thinking, and then just waited. And of course, the response took a long time. and by that time I had gone back to work so we couldn't even like talk about it back and forth and I think I had been on a closing shift too so I wouldn't get home till like 11 at night to talk about it but I just remember being at a point where I had to like gush all of my feelings and
emotions out and of course once I got home we talked about it for like three hours and sat down and I'm sure there were tears and lots of hugging and I know it went well because I'm here and we're still married and we're together.
AlexSince this episode is mostly about coming out of the closet, I kind of wanted an explanation from you as to how you came out to me and why oh i don't really have an explanation
Mattiehow did you come out to me i came out to you over text message why because i just couldn't hold it inside anymore you know what i mean why why because i was scared of changing the dynamics
Alexof our marriage and our relationship you're still avoiding the main question which is over text
Mattiewhy no that is literally the answer because i was afraid of how you would react to me coming out in front of you how it would change the relationship between us and the dynamic of our marriage like genuinely i was afraid of those emotions no i know you well obviously you were afraid of those
Alexanybody would be afraid of that but I'm but you could have come out in front of like you could have talked to me with your mouth words but you didn't you sent me a text you sent me a text during the Apple keynote when they were releasing the iPhone 10 multiple texts not just one well you know what I mean well don't make it just sound like it sound better if well it makes it
Mattiesound better that I like put in a bunch of thought into it and feelings as opposed to just hey I'm
Alextrans that's what I mean you could have sent me like you could have sent even an email or like sending it to me when we weren't both working like I just don't understand you you sent it during the middle of the day and you were at a day job where you couldn't like take many breaks to go talk
Mattieabout this because my answer is literally because i was scared because it would change our six-year relationship and our two-year marriage i'm not sure how that isn't like a concrete answer like that's a big told their their well and most and most relationships when the partner comes out
Alexas trans end so how did you think like but how it's how is sending it over a text message better
Mattiehow did you like because i didn't have to deal with that fear up front in my face to be fair i came out to everyone over the internet or phone via text or message so uh you're not special
Alexthat's honestly i mean like you kid but that's that's the thing is i've i hope at least i've been nothing but supportive of you finding yourself and you go like I don't know we well
Mattieof course you have I think I was just going through a really emotional time at work that day and the way all the cards landed I just decided right in that moment I had to come out and I've been known in the past for being impulsive and making impulsive important decisions I think it
Alexwas selfish. How so? Because you bombarded me. You even just said that it wasn't just one text. You bombarded me with basically a letter as a text message during the work hours when you knew that you wouldn't be able to respond to me. Like you would not have had the chance to respond to
Mattieme even if you wanted to I actually do think I I asked for a 15 minute break so we could talk a little longer 15 minutes in the moment when I was wrapped up in my emotions you know I wasn't thinking like I wasn't trying to be selfish obviously I just spewed everything out whereas yes in retrospect and I think right after like that night when we had a conversation I was like yes it was selfish but in that moment obviously I wasn't like gee I want to hurt Alex let's be
selfish and come out this way like there was no honestly honestly God there was no planning in the form of how I would come out I know you weren't thinking that you wanted to hurt me
Alexand a lot of people say that there's no wrong way to come out and I strongly disagree
Mattieokay but how is me coming out hurting you see that's that's where the line gets dicey like the way i came out might have hurt you the way you came out hurt me right but me coming out didn't
Alexhurt you no let's clarify yeah of course not no but you deciding specifically i didn't decide
Mattiethat's what i'm saying i didn't decide you have agency over your actions though when i'm really
Alexemotional I don't think that I make smart decisions I agree with that neither do I but you knew that there was going to be fallout you knew that we were going to talk about this later it wasn't going to be hey I'm trans and then that just we would go on with our lives without ever acknowledging it I like fallout sounds bad but I mean there was fallout because you texted me
Mattiethere wasn't fallout we sat down and talked about it there was no negative reaction that came from and maybe that's because you were being considerate and now two years later you're like hey i had negative reaction um which is fair like that's completely valid you texted me i know
Alexwhen we have had even face-to-face conversations there are times where you have a million follow-up questions rightly so and you think oh why didn't you tell me this right away and i i basically didn't have any time to process it all i had were those words that you sent and they were so carefully crafted too in a way that no they weren't what do you know it was like an emotional
Mattieexplosion they were not carefully crafted don't lie i'm not lying they felt emotionally they didn't feel like an emotional explosion. I'm a writer. I'm better at writing. I know you are.
AlexExactly. They were crafted. I'm reading these words. I can't react because I'm sitting in a room with a bunch of people watching the iPhone keynote. It's not like it was a work meeting. You could have just left to go to the bathroom. It might have well. I work basically in tech. It
Mattiewas basically a work meeting. You were all standing around watching the television. I saw a picture of
Alexit was not a meeting we were all smushed together watching it on the tv and i excused myself and just went and sat on the dirty bathroom floor head in my hands not upset that you were trans but upset because this is how you decided to tell me what's upsetting me more actually is you saying that you kind of still would have done it this it seems like you would still have done it the same
Mattieway would you have changed because I was the same person to I wouldn't have been like if I time traveled back and was this person I would have come out to your face if I was still the same person two years ago with all of my coming out experiences going very poorly then yeah I would have done the same thing because all of my prior coming out experiences had gone poorly so why would I think that that would go any different, especially because so many partners and relationships,
when their significant other comes out as trans, they just end. They're just done.
AlexThat's why it's so upsetting is because you see me as one of those people.
MattieI didn't see you as one of those people. I looked at the facts. I wasn't like, oh, this is going to be Alex. I was like, these are the facts. This is what happens. Like, why are we special?
AlexNo. What do you mean? Why are we special?
MattieLike why in that moment would I have thought, hey, we're different than all these other people. This is going to work.
AlexBut if you're not going to try, then what's the point at all?
MattieWell, of course I tried. Of course we tried. Like we're here. Yes, we tried.
AlexThere are other couples who went through the same thing and did stay together. but you went with the majority and you thought that I was going to be like the majority of basically previously straight cis couples and we're queer as fuck so why did you think
Mattiewell no people in queer relationships when their partner comes out as trans like I know we identified as lesbians you hate men I do still hate men I still hate men so wouldn't it be super scary to me like could can you briefly imagine being in my shoes and being me yes and i'm
Alexnot saying that i wouldn't be scared i would be terrified but i would hope that i would have thought better of you and told you in person i probably would have picked a date and a time or rather i would have picked a date and a time and you know what honestly i probably would have ended up blurting it out while we were watching TV or like playing with the cats. But to send a text message, and didn't you consult one of our friends too?
MattieNot on how I should come out, on if I should come out. Like if it was the right time is my answer of I was scared. Does that hold any weight? Of course it does, but... There were a lot of contributing factors to it too.
AlexI understand but unless there was a contributing factor of there was no way to physically talk to me in the next 24 hours I don't I don't know.
MattieI'm not saying it wasn't bad I'm just saying I literally was going to come out in person that night but I couldn't like I didn't think I could handle it not because of you but because of me I didn't think I could handle coming out in person like I would get too scared and stop and it needed to be done so I did it in the only way I could handle right then
AlexI feel like I just dragged you over the coals.
MattieThat's okay. I don't feel like you did. I feel like we worked out some stuff.
AlexYeah. I want to give you a hug.
MattieI would like that.
AlexBut I don't... I can't get up. I'm monitoring the levels.
MattieOkay, I'm gonna walk around the table and give you a hug now.
AlexThank you for that narration. What great foley work. Ah!
MattieI love you.
AlexI love you too. Okay, have another hug. It's like you're tackling me. It tickles.
I'm lying here in the room where Mattie came out to me, And I just listened to the argument we had the other day about when he texted me. And I'm glad that we had that talk. That's not what is filling me with regret. It's how I reacted to him coming out in general.
and Mattie has never held this above my head not once but when we were in this room I remember lying staring at the ceiling and just feeling so lost and helpless for a number of reasons not just because I knew our lives were about to dramatically change,
but I kept thinking about all of the times people had called me so many slurs. At the time, I looked much more masculine than Matt did, And I was just thinking what was waiting for him as he would start transitioning. But the real thing I'm truly ashamed of is the internalized transphobia that I let come out.
I asked him over and over, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? which definitely must have made him question his own transness. It was because I was having similar feelings, but I didn't know how to express them. I didn't think, and I don't think, that I'm a man.
And yet I still question why I hate my boobs so much. and why sometimes wearing a dress makes me nauseous. But I never want to be the kind of person who questions somebody because of my own transphobia and my own fear. And I promise I'm going to try my hardest to never, ever treat someone like that again.
do you have any final words about coming out or any advice for people who are coming out
Mattiefirst I feel like I am the worst person to give advice for coming out I just want to start off with that uh second though I think it is okay to come out in any way you choose as long as you're safe like as long as you know the person you're coming out to or you bring
Alexsomeone like a buddy with you any way you come out is okay yes I agree despite my initial reactions I'm sorry it's okay did you use any resources for when you were coming out
MattieWell, I did, but like the ones that are specifically tailored to me, so they're not like the greatest ones. But I used Howard Brown Health because it's located in Chicago. And I used Hudson's FTM Resource Guide, which has like everything about FTM transitioning.
And then I was looking up a couple others, and there's actually one on Planned Parenthood. And the top ones are the Trevor Project and GLAAD. A lot of the resources are actually for youth.
AlexI wish there were more resources for adults who were discovering new things about their gender. But maybe this podcast can sort of be one of those things.
MattieSame. But it's also good that there's so many more resources for youth because we didn't have any of that.
AlexYeah, that's exactly why neither of us were talking about gender.
Mattie10 years ago. Right, but it's good that there's that in the world now so that people don't have to wait this long to figure their stuff out, you know?
AlexOh, man. Can you even imagine what it would have been like if GeoCities was full of gender stuff? Kind of like how Tumblr is now.
MattieWould have blown my mind. I know, right? I'd be doing that instead of playing Neopets, let me tell you.
AlexNo, I would have still. I think I would have just liberated my Neopets from gender, but I still would have played that. And Pokemon. I play Pokemon now, though, so, irrelevant.
MattieWe really appreciate you checking out this second episode of Two Headed Girl, and we hope you tune in to more in the future. The music you heard in this episode is from Seth Boyer's album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends Kathy Campbell, Margaret Dax Mark Bramhill, Kara Fagan Kevin Budnick and our obnoxious cats If you'd like to hear more head over to twoheadedgirl.fm or subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts including our favorite independent app Overcast made by the wonderful
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Thank you.