4. They’re My Dongles
2019Show notes
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Alex and Mattie talk about chests. Or, "this is an episode about boobs but let's pretend it's a little more nuanced than that."
Show Notes
Alex's favorite (and only) t-shirt!
Roboism
Cortex
Roderick on the Line
Safe Binding
Two Headed Girl on Twitter
Alex's Twitter
Mattie's Twitter
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieLet's just like circle back what's left on your notes. Let's circle back to how you feel. I know you're uncomfortable, but you have to. This episode is about you and you need to talk about how you feel about your chest. Just take a couple deep breaths. I know you're uncomfortable and it sucks. This is the one time I'm going to push you. I'm Mattie Cox. And I'm Alex Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds and transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.
AlexI've been thinking about my boobs today and the t-shirts I wear. And I talk a lot about t-shirts I know all the time everywhere. But my favorite t-shirt, oh god hear me out, one of my favorite t-shirts is the roboism t-shirt which sure is the podcast I have but so the design is pretty large but doesn't go across the whole shirt it covers enough of your tits that it's like
they're almost like protected and it doesn't bring enough attention to them though because it goes far enough below them that it's not like here's my tit logo you know what I mean right yeah so it doesn't feel like people are just staring at your boobs right and then I realized that that's why and again it is indeed like my favorite podcast but the cortex t-shirt you know the one with the like very it's almost like a little stylized brain you know yes that's also why and I
have like three of them and normally I just get t-shirts that people give me but I have paid for them like I've paid for like three of them I love them because the logo is the sort of the same type you know what I mean right it's also I'm looking at your boobs right and it's like intricate enough that it's not just like words on a shirt which and I realized I don't buy shirts with just words on them anymore even if there's something that I absolutely adore like those uh there's a shirt that says super train directly across of it which which is one of my favorite references from my one
of my favorite shows roderick roderick on the line but i don't ever wear it because it's like
Mattieright across my nipples you know what i mean yeah it is kind of like look at these tits yes they are a super train is there anything you wear now or that you have in your wardrobe rotation now that makes you feel
Alexcomfortable and or less aware of your chest at all no i mean when we were actually trying on clothes and you asked just have one piece of clothing that makes you feel like you and i realized that i didn't have that and i've never had that i have pieces of clothing that relieve some
Mattiehonestly at this point you you can say chest dysphoria because you were heavily in denial about what it was and at this point it really it's it's dysphoria you have dysphoria towards
Alexyour chest i didn't i didn't even it's one of those things where i didn't even know i was in denial i was just like it was that again that internalized transphobia that as well as the misinformation of if I don't want to get my boobs completely removed then it's not dysphoria well that's not true I don't know I just keep thinking I've never liked my body but who is
like honestly though like what queer person is born and being like i love my body or well
Mattiewhat person in the world with the yeah with the stereotypes and the body types we have to look at in america what person in the world is born like i love my body it is fair to say what
Alexwhat person at all is comfortable with their body um and for a while i was slowly getting okay with it um like and not just not just okay with being fat but also being okay with having like super feminine hips and stuff like that but can i ask at what age you were becoming okay with it uh like in the past few months no I mean well honestly yeah in the past
couple of years because I have a partner who has never made me feel ashamed of my body
Mattiebecause I love your body I love your I love your curvy I love your curvy I love my wife and her
Alexcurvy thighs I wonder if that meme is still gonna be relevant when this comes out oh definitely not Oh, boy. But I've never liked my boobs. They've always been a...
I've never liked them because they're just a bit much.
MattieLike, they're quite large. Do you feel uncomfortable saying what size they are?
AlexOh, no. I've told my bra size on other podcasts. I think I'm a 38DD. Yeah.
MattieThat's a lot of boob to carry around.
AlexYeah, don't send me bras, though. People have already sent me a bunch of bras because I talked about it on another podcast.
MattieYou could just say Dubai Friday.
AlexA show called Dubai Friday with Max Temkin and Merlin Mann. And I guess what's hard is my tits are what everybody, man, woman, everything in between, they're what people have always liked about my body the most.
Mattieand that's always what I've liked about my body the least. I find your tummy very cute. I know, but you know what I mean. Also, the first thing I noticed were your eyes.
AlexOh, shut up. But that's the thing. My boobs were what made me hot to other girls and other dudes. Boobies. I can't say it.
But that's the thing. Boobies. Boobies. Titties. Bazingas. what am I saying breasts um but that's the thing my yeah exactly my tits are what made me hot to other like other girls in college and to other guys and I totally used that like I totally like even now like I will show cleavage and it is effective and that's so gross like I don't I fully want people, especially women, to use their bodies as a source of power.
Like, fuck yeah, you do you. Use everything you got. But I don't like my boobs. And it's not just because they are large. Because I don't have a terribly hard time finding bras, honestly. I'm pretty lucky that like people hear double Z and they're like, oh my God, hot. But really, like once you're like a ginormous person like I am, it just kind of they look like normal ish, but still.
MattieGiant Polish Yeti.
AlexYeah, I'm a giant Polish Yeti. And so it doesn't really matter. Like. I'll say it, though, people, when I wear a bra that fits correctly, they find them very attractive. And the other parts of me that would be considered the least desirable, like my hips and my tummy, my cleavage distracts from that. So it is not dysphoria.
MattieIt's just dislike. Which isn't, I don't lessen that. There are still parts of your body that make you uncomfortable.
Alexis it dysphoria if it feels like they're not a part of my body they're just something that's there
Mattiei think it's just is it body dysmorphia i might have to look that up like that's just how i've
Alexalways felt is like because they like appear and i so i'm always like i've always felt like
Mattiethese are intruders that i don't want but you do use them as an asset and you do see them as a part
Alexof your femininity right no no oh i see them as an asset like a tool like i literally see my boobs
Mattieas a tool to get what i want but does it make you uncomfortable that they're they make you
Alexthat no that they make you feminine yes absolutely because i want to be an androgynous blob
Mattiei mean then yeah it is a form of dysphoria but i would have never considered that you know like I would have never thought I don't know if it's I think maybe it's social dysphoria
Alexbut that's the thing though when I choose to be like yep my tits are here when I use them as a tool like I literally think like literally it's like
Mattiegosh Alex why are you such a tool
Alexyou're trying to lighten the mood because you know that I'm uncomfortable thank you
Mattiealso because I love you
Alexit's it's like a hard drive it's like something I just carry around because I have to you know it's like a USB-C dongle they're my dongles well can I I'm sorry I I'm your fans will love that
Mattieno I don't have fans gross you do can can I ask um but have you ever okay so if I may uh when I identified as female yes I hated that I didn't have a chest because I thought that is what you were supposed to have right so because I wore feminine clothes like let's say puberty so 12 13 I didn't get any sort of chest or my period until I was 16 right and so no clothes fit me properly
like I was still wearing a training bra until I was 16 because no bras fit even the smallest ones because I had nothing to fill the cups but like I used to be I used to be teased for other reasons but I was teased and like no girl shirts fit me properly like I could still wear uh like juniors shirts didn't fit me I could still wear like the largest girl shirts like kids shirts because I didn't have a chest and it made me uncomfortable because I felt like oh this is what I'm this is
Alexhow I am supposed to be and I'm not that's very interesting so we have basically the opposite experience of you felt that you you you well at the time you wanted to be more feminine because that's how all of your peers were presenting and I was like oh god also at the time I just thought I know this is going to sound very weird, but well, no, probably, probably not. It's going to sound weird to folks who didn't go to a nerdy high school that made a lot of t-shirts for all of the activities. But for every, you know, for everything, even like the women's sports, it was always a unisex shirt, you know?
and so my even with like the tightest of tight sports bras like I used to um wear two sports bras on top of each other so that it would you know try to not to have a flat chest but just to have a chest that like didn't be like oh my god my boobs are here you know what I mean um because all of the other girls it's not like they oh god this is terrible but yeah there were some other girls who had gigantic boobs and it was like boobs and the guys would objectify them and be like oh
look at and like make fun of them when they ran and stuff and so uh i was yeah i would just double or triple up on sports bras so that the t-shirts would fit normally or our uh polo shirts actually too weren't technically unisex but like they weren't built for boobs um if I have not yet mentioned it on this show I went to a catholic high school surprisingly not a lot of the baggage that we're talking about came from this catholic high school I'm just saying that the like nature
of these t-shirts and the nature nature of the t-shirts that I wanted to wear like so many of The juniors clothes, the t-shirt material was so thin and the crew cuts, like crew neck cuts were so low that it was like.
MattieInappropriate to show that much cleavage.
AlexNot, not even that. I just didn't want to show that much of my, like not my titty chest, like my actual, like above that chest, you know? I just wanted. Titty, titty, titty, ass, ass, ass. I just wanted a regular t-shirt. And even now, like what I'm wearing is literally a guy shirt from Old Navy from the Gap. And Gap. Let's be real. Gap is just overpriced Old Navy clothes.
MattieBut yeah.
AlexAnd if I had a normal bra on and not a sports bra, it would be it's already a little stretched out. But if I was wearing a, like, quote, regular bra with, like, underwire cups, all that, whereas I just have, like, a sports bra on now, it would be, like, very stretchy. And the same goes for every t-shirt I own. I do not own a women's t-shirt.
MattieThey are all unisex. I think they fit you fine, no matter what bra you're wearing. I know, I know I am biased, but. I mean, you better be biased.
AlexI take it back. One thing that has changed since last year is how I dress for fancy events. Because I've worn a lot of, not a lot, but I've worn dresses a number of occasions this year, And the majority of the time, it's been a positive experience that I have enjoyed.
And really, yeah. For example, our friend's wedding this summer, we knew almost like over half the people there. It was like half Chicago friends who all know each other and then half her high school and college friends. but nobody would have blinked an eye if I wore a suit with you you know what I mean right would have not been unexpected and it also wouldn't have been unexpected I did I wore a summer like
summer not quite cocktail-y not this isn't a fashion podcast I apologize you wore a dress I really like I really liked what I wore um and I thought we complimented each other's outfits very well did you feel comfortable in that dress oh I mean literally at some points no because it was warm however the dudes felt more uncomfortable because you guys all had suits on um but yes I felt comfortable because I felt like I had made a choice to do this and felt zero pressure
Mattieabout what I needed to wear right so it's like because you got to make the choice then you were more comfortable with your body and how you were presenting it.
AlexAnd obviously there's the same discomfort that I still wouldn't classify as dysphoria. Like I was conscious of some of my arm fat and I didn't want, you know what I mean? Like the small things that because I was around a group of people that I am comfortable with, that I love, that stuff faded away. and you were less self-conscious right and that that very much was like cool I like that I'm able
to do this but for winter stuff I am very lucky in that I don't have to dress up for stuff anymore
Mattielike we kind of do but we both wear sweaters at Christmas and stuff honestly we dress very similarly in the winter which doesn't bother me at all we dress pretty similarly it's real cute
Alexactually um but that's the thing i can now that oh god this is terrible but now that like you're out as trans it's almost like whatever i do it's it's like way less queer so it's like everyone in the family's like oh alex is just wearing a sweater no big yeah no big deal
Mattieit's exactly a year from when we first recorded talking about your chest how do you how do you
Alexfeel about that what are your feelings still I don't know when we were recording this I remember I was lying down in the comfortable area in the office and just sort of spewing my feelings. And I think you realized that I was going through something. So you just let me just puke out all of this stuff. It was your first heavy gender exploration that we
recorded and that's the thing i didn't feel like it was my first heavy thing sorry it's because my boobs are heavy and now i'm giggling about that i won't giggle i'm probably i promise you're an adult yep i'm an adult um it makes me sad that none of those feelings have really changed and that I don't think I've taken any positive steps.
MattieJust because like your feelings about gender and yourself have evolved like so much through recording this that you could get there eventually where you want top surgery or like a breast reduction or something like feeling uncomfortable with your chest and wanting to be more androgynous means it it is dysphoria.
AlexA part of what you just said is wrong, though, because the feelings about myself haven't evolved whatsoever. I just have different words to describe them and a much better understanding of why I feel the way I feel. And I know that there are other folks out there like me who aren't, I don't know, they're in this squishy middle androgynous place and it's okay. And the dysphoria I feel is not dangerous to myself.
MattieYou don't have to hate yourself or want to harm yourself for it to be dysphoria. Right. That's a big misconception in the community and something that is very toxic to believe.
AlexAnd not just the queer community, but folks in general. Some people in general think that any sort of transness is a mental illness. And they don't think that out of spite or malice, it's true misinformation.
MattieLike ignorance. yeah at this point I don't think it's misinformation I think it's ignorance like
Alexnot educating yourself at all since we really barely talked about you uh like how are you doing since last year we we obviously talk about this together but you've been binding less yeah what again what's a binder can you explain to folks who don't who might not know we didn't
Mattiereally go over that yet a binder is something you so it's a compression device that you put on and they usually look like tank tops and they're sold by trans companies for trans people and it makes your chest look flat or like you have pecs so and it's safe only if you wear it for a certain amount of time so like there's very specific roles like you shouldn't wear it more than eight hours you should gradually like get used to wearing it that much but it's to make you appear more androgynous
Alexor masculine so you have a flat chest we'll put in the show notes great resources that tell you the correct safe ways to wear a binder one thing you've asked me recently was have I ever considered wearing a binder and my answer is still no almost because of the same reasons I have around how I wear bras like I'm always going to be aware that I'm aware that I'm wearing something does that
Mattiemake sense right but in the mirror then you would appear you would look more how you feel you know what I mean would that visual give you any gender euphoria do you think like would you ever want to try it to see how you would feel mentally?
AlexHmm.
MattieThat's a good question.
AlexI mean, I'm up for trying anything. You know that. But I think I would be more aware of it throughout the day than I would when I would pile on sports bras. You know what I mean? and comfort is the primary thing that makes me both literally and mentally uncomfortable like it feels super uncomfy to be aware of like oh are my boobs popping out and all of that
whereas yes I know that wouldn't happen with a binder because it's a full-on thing that like goes from the like your sternum all the way to your stomach and because you can't wear it for more than a few hours because of safety I would always be aware of that honestly for me it's a little bit like tampons like I'm always I swear I'm like always aware of tampons because I'm paranoid of toxic shock syndrome oh my gosh yeah and neither of those things are rational but you know me
sometimes I have 16 hour days and yeah so you're saying it would make you more aware of your chest and then less comfortable basically yeah and you have almost completely stopped binding why is that just because is it because your chest has just gotten smaller because of uh testosterone yeah
Mattieit's literally shrunk like a size and a half and I didn't have a big chest to begin with I found out that I did have a B cup, which I was very surprised about. That was shocking for me. But I can just wear a sports bra. And when I don't wear a sports bra, because like it was really sweaty this summer, and I didn't want to break out, I would just unfortunately like layer shirts, like so I'd wear a t shirt and then a button up or a t shirt and then another t shirt or a tank top and a button up. And I have the privilege to do that, which is on one hand,
I feel great that I don't have to wear a binder. And on the other hand, I feel like sometimes I feel like it makes me not trans enough. Like, why do I even want top surgery if my chest is that
Alexsmall? And I don't know. And it gives you the feeling of why do I want this when I can pass?
MattieNot even that. No. Just because I have a small chest, it has nothing to do with passing. because I if I I would like to be shirtless in the summer and if I don't get top surgery like it's clear because my body type is so small that it's they're not like pecs it is if I'm not wearing
Alexa shirt it's like oh you know those are tits I our society and functions in the world evolve far faster than the evolutions of our body so i would would always will always who knows what i'm going to do with my body at some point to eat throw away those tits well it's i mean we can't get into this now but the expenses good oh good fucking god um i honestly i almost feel guilty
Mattiebecause your chest is so much bigger and brings you so much more discomfort that i'm like well
Alexwhy why should I don't I I don't even want to think about this now because I I think I have well I don't know if I have societal or um physical dysphoria because I still feel like they are tools there's sort of a very structured way that you're supposed to quote transition and that's not how it should be it is changing slowly but surely but I don't see myself as
a trans person because I've never changed anything about my body and I've never felt anything different I have always felt this way yeah but the thing is you don't have to be
Mattieuncomfortable or miserable with your body you can change it you can take the steps to change but i don't want to be on testosterone i don't want to like you don't have to go on testosterone
Alexto get rid of your tits i know i know like let's let's do let's go one step at a time and have me address this in therapy because i have addressed body issues in general at therapy but more focusing on you know weight issues stuff like that which seems more of an experience a human experience overall and I don't think I've been honest with myself or with anybody in therapy about how
Mattieyou feel about your chest yeah so one step at a time is what you're saying for the future yeah We really appreciate you checking out this episode of Two Headed Girl. If you're enjoying the show, please tell a friend or two. You can find us at patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm, which supports the show and trans healthcare costs. The music you heard in this episode is from Seth Boyer's album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends Kathy Campbell, Margaret Dax,
Mark Bramhill, Kara Fagan, Kevin Budnick, Merlin Mann, and Quinn Rose. If you'd like to hear more, head over to twoheadedgirl.fm or subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts, including our favorite independent app, Overcast, made by Marco Arment, who made me way too enthusiastic about watch bands. Please reach out to tell us what you think, ask us questions, or send us that goodgayshit on Twitter at TwoHeadedGirlFM. Thanks again for listening. Take care of each other.
The cat opened the door. I'm waiting for him to jump on the bed and go,
AlexNo? Okay.