23. Martha Stewart of Murderers
2021Show notes
Happy Trans-tober! In this episode Mattie and Alex discuss queer stereotypes and tropes in the 1991 movie Silence of the Lambs.
🚨SPOILERS FOR SILENCE OF THE LAMBS! 🚨
Show Notes
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieHi, I'm Mattie Cox. And I'm Alex Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.
AlexHappy Trans-tober! What what? In, I don't know if this is everywhere, but apparently in Chicago it's also Pride Month? Did you see that?
MattieI mean, everyone is having their pride parades now because of COVID.
AlexI think it's just funny that it's like a few months late.
MattieOh, well. You know what I saw? People on, of course, the Facebook being like, why do you need two months to celebrate pride? Didn't we do this already? It's like you celebrate your straightness every day. Shut up.
AlexEveryone calm down. So today we're doing something a little different. You had the fantastic idea for us to do a spooky queer media month for October, specifically horror movies that don't depict trans and queer people in the best light.
MattieWell, usually, because of when the movies were made, they depict the trans or, like, more femme male characters as the villain.
AlexAbsolutely. And this has been a trope since the beginning of American cinema in general, unfortunately. but it really really sticks out in horror movies because essentially a lot of slashers are about american insecurities and one of the biggest ones is is gender and sexuality so we're going to be
Mattietalking about The Silence of the Lambs, the 1991 movie directed by Jonathan Demme and written by Ted Talley. It's adapted from a 1988 novel. That was a fast turnaround. Was it really popular when the book came out? Oh, yeah. Well, it was the start of this serial killer, like, interest.
AlexOh, I guess you're right. Like this is the first kind of, or at least as far as I know, this is the first film that depicts a serial killer as very intelligent and cunning. And we're referring to, of course, Hannibal Lecter or Hannibal the Cannibal.
MattieShould I do a brief summary of the movie?
AlexPlease do, because I had not seen this somehow. I've seen it like 10 times.
MattieOkay, so Jodie Foster, starring as Clarice, is a young FBI trainee who is helping profile serial killers because Hannibal the Cannibal, who is the very intelligent serial killer, won't speak to any of the male FBI agents. And so her boss is like, this is your test to see if you can become a psychological profiler of criminals. Go and see if you can get Hannibal to talk to you.
AlexAlthough, before the film gets transphobic, it's immediately sexist because there's, you know, the montage of her FBI Academy training and she's not as fast as the guys. And her boss at first doesn't even tell her why she's going. He's just like, do you think you're up to it? Whatever your last name is that I forgot.
MattieMy favorite scene to show the sexism is when this tiny lady, Jodie Foster, gets into the elevator with all the men, all the giant FBI agents, and you just see this tiny little woman standing surrounded by all these big burly men. And that's how you know, like, here cometh the sexism. Clarice interviews Hannibal because the FBI needs help catching Buffalo Bill, who is a current serial killer, hunting and murdering women.
AlexDo we ever find out how they caught Hannibal?
MattieWe don't, no. That's in the sequel.
AlexOh, spoilers.
MattieWhich is very bad. But the basic plot is Clarice gets Hannibal to open up and he, through a bunch of vague clues, helps them catch Buffalo Bill. And then Hannibal escapes and sequel.
AlexIndeed. So who is Buffalo Bill?
MattieBuffalo Bill is based on a bunch of different serial killers, but heavily based off of Ed Gein, who was a serial killer in the 1960s.
Alex60s. I didn't realize it was that long ago. I don't know why. I guess I put him in the category of what's the clown guy's name who was actually from our suburbs, but John Wayne Gacy. But fun fact, he didn't actually wear a clown suit that often. It was just another way to, you know, increase the narrative of creepy sneaky guy.
MattieSo Ed Gein and Ted Bundy are the two serial, real life serial killers that Buffalo Bill is based off of. Because Ted Bundy kidnapped women in the back of his car and lured them in that way. And that's what Buffalo Bill does. And then Ed Gein, content warning, this is a little graphic.
AlexAnd by a little bit, I would say horrifying.
MattieYeah, if you've never seen the movie and you're squeamish, I would skip over the details about what Buffalo Bill does. So tell me, what do you know about the real life crimes that Ed Gein did and how he relates to Buffalo Bill?
AlexI knew that Ed Gein was sort of the OG of I'm murdering women because I supposedly want to be like them. I think he was the first and probably only, even though this is somehow a trope, the first guy to murder women and then take their body parts and wear them in some way. So a skin suit all the way.
MattieBut more specifically, like Norman Bates, he wanted to emulate his mother. Like very Freudian, like his mom was his life. He depended on his mother. And once his mother died, he murdered women that resembled her. Like the whole point of Ed Gein was he wanted to kill women that looked like his mom.
AlexAnd something that makes him very different than the fictional Buffalo Bill is that he, I believe he didn't torture any of his victims. He killed them and then did stuff to...
MattieNo, he was actually a grave robber. He only killed two women that looked like his mom to get all the women's body parts like Buffalo Bill. Instead of kidnapping women, he grave robbed. So he found recently dead bodies and did things like made belts out of their nipples. He crafted. He made chairs out of their skin. He kept their skulls in jars. And much like the scene where Buffalo Bill gets caught in Silence of the Lambs, they find Bill's decomposing mother's body in a bathtub.
And that was actually Ed Gein in his mother's room had his decomposed mom's body. So heavily, heavily based off of one another.
AlexI don't want to sound like I am defending Ed Gein.
MattieOh my god. Wait, wait, wait. Clarify.
AlexOkay, so a lot of my knowledge around Ed Gein is based off of an episode of one of our favorite podcasts, You're Wrong About. And, you know, Sarah Marshall goes through all of the misconceptions around him. And from what we know, it seems like he wasn't an imminent or did not seem to be an imminent threat on his community.
But afterwards, the main thing that horrified people wasn't the actual murder of these women, but the fact that he wanted to emulate his mother and emulate feminine traits.
MattieWell, that's the thing is he was trans or he maybe wanted to do drag. They weren't sure which, honestly, because he wanted to dress up like his mother. But as Sarah Marshall stated, he had a box full of women's organs, which labia and vaginas, and Ed Gein would put them over his penis and wear them.
He also scalped women and would wear their skulls. And he also had the whole front of a woman skinned and would hang the skin around him and dance in the moonlight. so there are some queer aspects to it but they're not sure if it was because he wanted to become a woman which i know is outdated uh that that's just how they stayed in the episode and in the movie they're not sure if it's because he wanted to become a woman or if it's because of his deep
Alexpsychological issues with his mother honestly does i don't think it matters mostly because I didn't know whether I was trans or wanted to do drag. So how are we to judge?
God, I don't want to sound like I'm defending Ed Gein, but who are we to judge this person in the 1960s with deep psychological issues?
MattieWho wanted to wear vaginas.
AlexOh, gosh. Poor labia.
MattieThat's one of the most disturbing, and not because of the feminine aspects or the trans aspects. It's just so disturbing that he had to be so careful to, like, remove just that body part.
AlexLike, ugh. Oh, boy. Are there...
MattieThere are literally... He confessed all of this to the cops. So we're not making it up. Like, all of these details he confessed to the cops.
AlexOh, gosh. never never talk to cops without a lawyer why am i talking stop stop defending the serial killer i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm okay he is a monster i mean he he uh uh well we are i don't believe that people are defined by the worst things they've done oh god i'm going to shut up wow Should we talk about the fictional Ed Gein, a.k.a. Buffalo Bill? Oh, and I think we should say that we're going to use outdated terms for trans people just because it is not only stated in the movie, but I think it's sort of important to like how the, I don't know, how trans people were perceived in 1991.
MattieSo it was 1991, and being queer or other was one of the most terrifying things to society at the time. So of course that made him even scarier. But what Buffalo Bill did that was different than Ed Gein is he allegedly, obviously is fake, in the movie they state that he was rejected for a sex change operation and that's what made him start killing women.
AlexGod, so dumb.
MattieSo he would skin his female victims, well, catch them, throw them in a pit, have them lose weight, wear their skin.
AlexOh, that's why he made them lose weight, so he could make the skin suit fit better.
MattieYeah, yeah. His famous line is, are you about a size 14?
AlexOh, yeah. Which was considered... Oh, God. And I like how it's implied that he needs larger women because...
MattieThe skin suit will fit him then.
Alex14. Yep, definitely a large, large size. And I want to just point this out on my own personal media bias that I didn't know that the whole it puts the lotion on the skin thing like the when the women are in the pit and he's talking to them. um i know what what's the line like i'm sure folks know what this is it puts the lotion on
its skin or it gets the hose again oh boy uh yeah i knew i thought that was from like misery or
Mattiesomething but i know because his skin has to be soft and supple so he can wear it yeah oh gosh oh boy um all right let's should we get into the queerness and not the horrors let's talk about
Alexhow Hannibal describes Buffalo Bill to Clarice because he is Hannibal he's a psychiatrist and in fact at the beginning of the movie right after he talks to Clarice to sort of prove his prowess I guess as a master manipulator he talks his not his cellmate but the the guy next to his cell into biting off his own tongue or something.
MattieOh, my God. Yeah.
AlexYeah. And it's just for funsies.
MattieI mean, he psychologically manipulates everyone and does a profile on Clarice to see if it'll break her, you know, and when it doesn't and she returns after their initial meeting, then he slowly gives her clues about buffalo bill and like weird riddles yeah lots of anagrams yeah and she's so smart i mean that's why they hire her and yet degrade her through most of the
Alexmovie well she's a woman doing a man's job alex the the hannibal the cannibal it respects her more than all of her bosses. That's so true. I mean, she works for a bunch of cops. What are you gonna what you gonna do? So and unfortunately, she decides to become a cop. But oh, different time, different place. But Matt, how does Hannibal like straight off the bat? Talk about
buffalo bill to her after you know after the riddles and all of that oh well he says that
Mattiebuffalo bill is is sloppy and like doesn't really have a plan is kind of uneducated but he's the one who says the freud thing like it's clearly uh caused by uh his mother dying and him not being able to do that like almost you know how freud said you we all want to fuck our moms um and and And so Hannibal uses that example. And he also is the one that mentions to Clarice that Bill was denied his sex change operation because of mental issues, which clearly those are real.
That is not a transphobic thing. He, you know, clearly has mental issues.
AlexWell, I do. OK, I'm not going to defend Buffalo Bill.
MattieAlex here to defend the serial killer.
AlexThe maligned fictional serial killers of the 1990s. But I think it's very funny when Anthony Hopkins, who plays Hannibal, is like, he is a transsexual. Like, he just says it in such a... Clarice. Hello, Clarice. He's a transsexual. And it's sort of implied, yes, that he was denied this surgery because he was crazy, but also that he didn't truly want to be a woman. Like,
it's honestly the same. Not the same, but pretty similar to even just a few years ago, when people would be denied gender affirmation surgery because it's like, well, do you really
Mattiewant it? Have you been to a therapist? Are you sure? Like where you would have to lie in offices with HRT doctors or general practitioners and basically perform for them strict binary gender ideals to be considered trans like you couldn't it like you know uh like even five years ago you couldn't go in and and say like non-binary you would have to be like yes i want to be a trans man i played with trucks i wear overalls i want to get i want to play in the mud and do baseball
and football and and you or you know i i wear dresses and makeup every day and oh god so well
AlexOne very public account of this is Laura Jane Grace. The I believe she was the like front person of Against Me. She was the OG from Against Me. And in her book, she says how like she went to a gender therapist like every day for months and just kept being denied over and over again.
And it wasn't until she came in with a dress and heels, like super basic. I'm OK. Basic ass in terms of a young woman who's a punk anarchist.
MattieLike, right. Well, she wouldn't gender norms.
AlexYeah. And I'm sorry. I'm laughing because it's just so upsetting. Like she's an she was an adult. This is OK.
MattieYou're laughing like Cheyenne, who's uncomfortable, in Superstore, who laughs every time everything is uncomfortable. This is so funny because I'm uncomfortable.
AlexSide note, everybody should watch the office comedy Superstore, which is basically a parody of Walmart and yet does not glorify capitalism. But anyway.
MattieAnd also his positive gay characters.
AlexOh, so many great queers. unlike, well, oh God, Buffalo Bill. Oh, you sweet, precious angel.
MattieSorry. Do you want to talk about the queerness specifically or do you think we've covered that?
AlexYou know what? I don't think we have because, I mean, you covered the plot of the movie and basically Hannibal gives Clarice enough clues so that she can figure out where Buffalo Bill is and there's the whole like sideline of Hannibal escaping and like doing his own thing but like
Mattiethat's that's not important to what we're talking about i mean the most iconic scene that has even been parodied in family guy is when buffalo bill has scalped a woman puts the hair on his head dresses up in a kimono does full makeup has the women woman's skin suit hanging over himself has tucked his dick back and says and dances in front of the mirror and says would you do me I do me
and and and dances and like it that is the scene that I would say is the most transphobic other than you know them saying transsexual because it's just it's horrific it's oh I mean it's supposed to be horrific but like that's the scene that makes it seem like you know the villain it's because he's queer he is the
Alexvillain because he is other and it's portrayed almost as if the fact that he's wearing dead women's skin like that is um that's horrifying but just as horrifying is the fact that he put on makeup and is dancing around like yeah like that adds to the horror like that is the
Mattiehorror aspect that's how it's supposed to be seen to the audience we do not think that that is the horror aspect and and so you know he's evil not just because he's a serial killer but because
Alexhe's a queer serial killer oh and in fact i forgot about this a couple times the fbi is confused because in order to make a skin suit, you need to be able to sew things. And then it's implied also that he might be gay because he knows how to sew.
MattieOh, well, because his mom owned a shop and taught him how to sew. It's kind of like how they talk about in You're Wrong About, how Norman Bates is effeminate and does effeminate things like chores for his mom, like cleaning. He's very bookish and feminine.
AlexHe's a nerdy gay.
MattieAnd there's a little bit of that, like, because he is soft and feminine, like, that sewing and doing women's chores and then you know skinning women on the side uh makes it makes you makes you evil or more evil
Alexevil or whatever evil more more moreest of more evil i'm interested in how you perceived this movie the first time you saw it because you've watched it many times it's like
Mattieone of your comfort movies it is not a comfort movie it is no it is used to watch it alone when i was traveling no no stop do not make me seem like a gross horrible person like the sympathizer of the serial killers there's no way that you can come off worse than i no uh i watch it every october for halloween because i think it is a very well made movie now to be honest i i started watching it when I was like 17 I think the first time I saw it uh because it's R-rated and also
disturbing and um I went through Jodie Foster phase but I'm still in a Jodie Foster phase uh but that scene always made me uncomfortable and I didn't realize that it was the queer aspect of the character that made me uncomfortable until I had come out as a lesbian oh interesting so like the first couple times I saw it, I was just like, oh, gross, these skins women. And then I was like, oh, this is really problematic. Because until I was like, 19, 18, I didn't even, I did not know
a lot about trans culture. But I was like, oh, this is transphobic. Once I, you know, was like, the second time viewing when I was a little older. How does it, how does watching that scene, specifically the mirror scene how does that make you feel because this is the first time you've
Alexseen the movie right and i actually when i saw it i was horrified for a number of reasons like yes the skin yes it's it's icky the skin suit but the i i was horrified by wait this is like the culmination of all the scary things about this person is that he has a room full of women's
clothing. Like, that's just as bad as torturing, murdering, and sewing up women's body parts. Like, it's the fact that, you know, there's makeup and dancing and I, oh god, I was shocked, honestly. And I know it was 1991, but...
MattieWait, what shocked you specifically?
AlexThe blatant sexism and transphobia that is on display. That is supposed to be the scariest part. The big reveal of what makes him a monster.
MattieYeah.
AlexAnd I don't know. And in fact, I had like you mentioned, mentioned this scene has been parodied in like Family Guy and I'm sure I think The Simpsons at some point. And I everything. Yeah. And I saw it. I don't know what I I don't even know what I thought. But like, I always saw it as, oh, here is, you know, they're making fun of drag and all of that. I didn't realize that they were referencing a serial killer and that like, oh, yes, this is just as bad.
This is what makes this person a monster. And like, sure, the other stuff, too. I will say, the woman that Buffalo Bill kidnaps and keeps in this well, at least she doesn't, you know, like, vilify him because of his gender choices.
MattieYeah, I guess that's true.
AlexYeah, good. And she doesn't hurt his dog. And in fact, at the end of the movie, spoilers, when she is rescued, she keeps the dog.
MattieYeah, I thought the dog was gonna die. I was very worried.
AlexI had to look it up mid-film because I'm pretty good with nasty stuff and really horrifying things in films, unless it involves a dog. hmm it's a really cute dog oh that's that's another thing it's this little like cute little frilly poodle and then it's also portrayed that he's weird for having like a girly dog I guess I don't know there's so many I I guess like microaggressions and like just weird nasty things
it it's like we we the most graphic parts of the film are when hannibal is doing violence right
Mattieand no buffalo bill hannibal doesn't do any violence what he does the thing with the guards oh yeah you're right he also makes a skin suit he doesn't eat people the uh what do you mean he doesn't eat people in the movie oh well he takes some chunks oh yeah the guy's ear
Alexand he does some he has some snacks but um i mean he has some snacks is that what you said just a little a little nibble uh between meals uh but but once again i just keep going back to the scene of buffalo bill looking in the mirror and uh talking to himself and in fact they i do they refer to that like as his altar like as if he's going into no okay they refer
Mattieto him the fbi agents refer to him as does hannibal as a transvestite like there's also
Alexpoint where I think Clarice opens a closet and you see the full lady like the full lady skin suit and again it's
Mattiethere's a vagina
Alexoh boy is there and it's again just as scary or less scary than the sky just dancing in front of a mirror but I mean I don't know the only thing we know about this character and and and he's he's supposedly been profiled by the not only a brilliant serial killer hannibal but a brilliant psychiatrist and
i i don't know i i'm really glad i saw this movie because i think it's a good thing to sort of have in the um it's an important movie if you like horror films obviously um a classic yeah and didn't this win an academy or at least anthony hopkins won an academy award award for being you
Mattieknow the brilliant psychiatrist jodie foster and anthony hopkins won best actress and best
Alexactor at the Academy Awards. I mean, good for them, except for, you know, the whole Hannibal, like, where he does the weird tongue thing. Hello, Clarice. That was out of nowhere and clearly must have been a really important part of the script. I don't know. I should look that up because that seemed actually really out of character because he seems very sane and in control of himself. And it just didn't seem like I know he did that to like freak her out or try to I don't know.
Like, she's clearly more freaked out by his psychological manipulation. But that's not why we were talking about this. We are talking about Buffalo Bill and why I think this is just.
I don't know. an important film because it really frames how people perceived trans folks in the 90s. I mean, before that, but even like this, this was probably the first time a trans or queer person was like on, was a main character, right?
MattieNot on a big screen, big budget movie? Yes. The director of the movie has a direct quote where he responds to the criticism from the LGBTQ community in an article on Wikipedia. It states that Buffalo Bill wasn't supposed to be a gay character or a trans character. he was a tormented man who hated himself and wished he was a woman because that would have
made him as far away from himself as he possibly could be that doesn't make any sense i mean okay fine but that i'm not saying he's right i'm just saying that was the response that that's so weird
Alexhe's like oh it's not transphobic but then he says but then he says something transphobic and and sexist as if okay so the furthest thing from himself is his gender and sexuality like that is the full definition of a person cool one thing that i kind of found funny about all of this is that the show Hannibal which was was a was beloved by like everybody um is that it is
it is the most queerbaity of queerbaiting shows between um Hannibal and his another FBI profiler profiler Will and in fact I think this is based on one of the the books um I I don't know there's a lot of apparently there are a lot of references throughout the um three seasons of specific things that happen but uh well it's not just queer bait there are other queer characters and i they're
they're also portrayed in a positive light and it's like oh hannibal might be a little bit bi but that's not what makes him a monster it's what makes him kind of kind of hot and will kind of hot
MattieWait, is this your opinion or is this what's in the show? Because I've never seen the show because I don't want to see him eating people.
AlexYou don't really see, it's a very graphic show, but you don't, like, see him eating people. Like, it's, I found it much scarier than The Silence of the Lambs, but that's because it involves, like, psychological torture and, you know, inner demons, but that's not related, like, none of the, sort of, you know, the inner demons any of the characters have relate to their gender or sexuality. gotcha it there are parts though where it's like okay Hannibal and is Hannibal and Will are either
going to kill each other or make out and it's just so they're debating you that's all yeah but well yes but there are other queer characters so like actually queer yes and the showrunners have said Like, you know, we wanted this tension that is like sexual in nature because it, you know, goes, they're so connected. But I don't want to spoil the whole show, but I wholeheartedly endorse that because it has none of the negative stereotypes that this film does.
MattieIt's like a prequel to all of this.
Alexis there anything else you want to say about this film i mean thank you very much for
Mattiebringing this this horrifying thing into my life of course anytime yeah yeah um and but i i i
Alexseriously do recommend that people watch this along with the show um oh we almost forgot about the doctor who runs the asylum that Hannibal is in because he's also sexist pig he he is but he's also very flamboyant and he is also a villain like just the worst and he and that's also kind of like the the fancy man is a bad guy he's played by bro Esperanza in the show Hannibal
who and he is bi in real life and he also portrays the character as flamboyant and a little gay but again that's they don't make that part of why he's a monster but they do in 1991 oh do they ever oh man well this has been fun i promise that i am not completely defending queer serial killers But I do think, hopefully, in October, we're going to have a couple other episodes where we talk about horror films that sort of revolve around the gay panic of, I mean, honestly, from the 60s onward.
MattieRight, because a lot of the gay panic started in the 70s when gay people wanted rights. And then they were like, let's make them monsters.
AlexYeah. Oh, oh, no. They want to wear different clothing.
MattieOh, no. They want rights.
AlexOh, no. Humanity. Oh, gosh.
MattieWhere can people find us on the Internet, Alex?
AlexOh, well, we are on Twitter at TwoHeadedGirlFM and on Instagram at TwoHeadedGirlFM. You can also email us if you want at twoheadedgirlfm at gmail.com. And this show is completely funded by you lovely, lovely listeners via Patreon. So you can go to patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm. And if you can, we would love it if you could, you know, throw money at us.
But if not, don't worry.
MattieTo help for Alex's titty job.
AlexYeah. Well, yeah, it's it helps us pay for production on the show and also is helping me save up for top surgery. So, again, thank you to everybody who supports this show financially and just as much to folks who are just sharing the show with your pals. We really appreciate it.
MattieWe really do. Stay safe, be well and happy Transtober.
Amen.