Two Headed Girl
Episode 18 artwork
Episode 18 · June 19, 2021 · 00:44:14

18. Bored and Mean

This weekMattie and Alex don't think that yelling at celebrities counts as trans liberation.
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Show notes

Mattie and Alex don't think that yelling at celebrities counts as trans liberation. 


Show Notes 

Transcript

Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakes

MattieHi, I'm Mattie Cox. And I'm Alex Cox. This is a show about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.

AlexThis is the episode that you wanted to do that's going to get us in trouble, but let's go for it.

MattieIf the queer community could just calm its tits, we wouldn't get in trouble.

Alexor lack thereof a shut up matthew what did you want to talk about today i wanted to talk about

Mattieelliot page and their slash his uses both pronouns interview with oprah because oprah did her effing research and it was a great interview i wanted to talk about this topic before the shirtless picture

Alexcontroversy so a quote controversy over elliot page's instagram okay so do you want me to do a little recap actually i lied i want to do a little recap because as we've mentioned previously on the show elliot page is i believe the first trans mask person who has has been out or at least out

using he slash they pronouns in our lifetime or of our generation uh and also the first trans mask person to be on the cover of time magazine and famously laverne cox was uh like what was it 2013 wow it's been a long time and we've come nowhere that was depressing anyway no we've come

Mattiewe've come places we have some places yeah trump isn't president anymore so we've made some progress

Alexyeah and and you know what trans people can be in the military and be compelled to commit war crimes again it's great everything's fine yep everything's fine i'm i'm sorry i'm already upset about what we're going to talk about in this episode because along with Elliot Page coming out as trans he uh do we want to use he or they pronouns let's use maybe he just because that's what he and Oprah used in the interview so yes for some clarity I think so right because I think he

prefers they pronouns slightly but we're just going to go with he because that is what they

Mattieboth used in the interview does that sound good yes also we are not erasing he pro they pronouns

Alexit was it was sort of like the uh megan and megan markle and harry uh prince mr prince harry um i I don't know what his title is anymore. Interview where it wasn't really any show. It was just like, hey, Oprah's interviewing this person. And this was exclusive to Apple TV. Oprah virtually sat down with Elliot Page, which they immediately point out that like, hey, we're in a digital space.

Like it looks like they're in the same room, but it's a green space. It's a green.

MattieIt was very cool.

AlexYeah. And I just had to mention that because I really liked it. And the first time I saw it, I was like, is this what I think it is? Like, are they using LiDAR? And the answer is yes. I think Apple was using its team to work on some of its augmented reality stuff. But anyway, so Oprah was granted the first, I guess, on-screen interview with Elliot Page. and it was very good in my opinion kind of a trans 101 interview but that's exactly what it

Mattieset out to be I think I think the public needed it because a lot of cis people watch and follow Elliot Page and I think it was a really good I think I think you're right it was a really good Trans 101 on how a person transitions and how it feels to transition in the public eye, I guess, sort of, you know?

AlexYeah. And when I say Trans 101, again, like, I really don't want people to think that that's a negative thing. Like, trans people go through Trans 101. one and in fact at the top of the interview i had forgotten about this but it was in my notes uh they both talk about the documentary disclosure which is which we'll cover in the future spoilers it's a documentary about transness and queerness um but they they both talked to nick adams the

director about what was the best language to use like how to produce it and they were out in the open about that like hey how do we do this instead of being like oh no what should we do oh what oh what are we gonna mess up they were like hey we prepared for this and and they got they promoted

Mattieanother person's when you're saying they you mean the producers of the show all of them like

Alexeverybody involved with the production just made me really happy it made me really happy that oprah

Mattiewatched it first and did her research like that was incredible that's what a lot of cis people need to do before they ask trans people questions google some shit and someone is going to you know

Alexwhat no google don't google some shit what some no no no wait wait wait wait wait uh don't google some shit google some trans people who make it their work to educate folks because like uh i believe his name is Nick Adams, but that's his job, is educating people about transness and making trans art. So you don't need to be afraid of people. That's just TikTok and Twitter yelling

Mattieat you all right uh let's get into a little bit of the specifics of the interview i mean i'm

Alexlooking at my notes here and when i was watching it all i could do was be like oh yep that's me that sure sounds exactly like how my life has felt specifically when Elliot said I feel like I haven't been able to be myself since I was 12 years old and I'm like actually I have that quote

Mattiein my notes too and it's 10 years old thank you very much oh I apologize and he was referring to wearing swim trunks and being really excited that he could wear swim trunks and not be judged and kind of he uh thought he was a tomboy and and related to that narrative like many of us did yeah and i also like felt that hard i was like oh that's so sad like it wasn't me i didn't have

that exact experience but uh for a lot of trans people it is like realizing that uh presenting or being a fab like there's just certain stuff you can't do once you hit puberty like

Alexbe shirtless i mean for me it was before puberty almost like beat for beat the story that elliott page talked about with not being able to wear swim trunks. I'm sure I've mentioned it on this show because it's such a flashbulb memory that continues to flash in my mind of me asking my mom why I had to wear a like swimsuit instead of just swimsuit bottoms. And I was younger than 12,

I think. And that, I don't know, that that hit home in a way that made the rest of the interview feel a lot more personal. Like the other thing he said was like, again, beat for beat, something from my childhood, how when he would wear like BMX stuff or like skateboard helmets, and um you know uh knee pads and elbow pads what he didn't realize at the time was that

that was gender euphoria because you know he looked like one of the guys and that's kind of always how i felt is it's like okay if i look like these people then i am one of them yeah i really

Mattielike how he talked about experiencing moments of gender euphoria and that helping him realize he was trans because often that's not enough of a narrative that the trans community puts forward a lot of it is you have to hate yourself or have negative feelings like hate your body um you know just feel uncomfortable and miserable all the time but him bringing up that he realized he was trans because of looking back on those moments of gender euphoria is so important because that's another

way that you can realize you're trans is having gender euphoria by presenting or being recognized

Alexas the other gender and that was beautiful to me yeah i think that also speaks to the work that this production team did in terms of what questions to to ask because we rarely get those stories even now in 2021 and you know we we get the happy we got some of his happy stories and not just you know um the the the one where he talks about how uh he was reading books by trans people

and just said oh i'm not trans i'm okay with with being gay and oprah oprah and i don't i don't care if this was scripted or not but she goes and gender is different from sexuality and it's like yes so i didn't realize and like you know and i was like wow oprah winfrey just said like the the woman who and you get a toaster and you get a toaster and you get a toaster

I just think about growing up watching Oprah because, you know, Chicago suburbs, having a mom watch it all the time. Like, I just have so many memories that aren't quite as bad as the Jerry Springer show, but of her bringing on queer people and being like, so what do you do with your penis? when she would have trans women on and like do the uh what what gender reveals used to be is when

people would go on stage and surprise their significant others and be like surprise i'm a woman oh my god okay we're going off on a tangent but that's the thing to to see oprah and i mean yes she's a billionaire like this could be all scripted and manufactured what the fuck ever it was a really powerful moment for me personally does that make sense yeah no um like i said at

Mattiethe top i feel like oprah even if it wasn't oprah and it was the producers that educated themselves they went into it the whole production team having educated themselves like that is really important they knew what language to use and what to say and like points to hit that didn't that weren't transphobic i don't think there was a moment of the interview that came across this

Alextransphobic yeah when we say what language to use it's we don't mean you can't say that word the transgenders yeah it's more of just like clarity you know what i mean um i'm trying to think of like a good example um oh trans trans mask is one they didn't necessarily get into the binary stuff, but they got into, you know, what a gender spectrum is and all that sort of

stuff. And again, hearing the two of them talk about that together and knowing that other trans people got paid to, you know, consult on this project just made me so, so happy. I don't know. And also because they were documentary filmmakers and I'm, yeah, I'm a nerd.

I told you this is just a hard uh I mean it's not super hard because you you did find a lot

Mattieof similarities but did that give you sadness or like gender euphoria or like a feeling of solidarity because I watching you watch it I saw like you cried happy tears you know I think I did yeah you're right and I think it's because you related to his journey so much a lot a lot more than I did and I'm just you know all trans people have different experiences

and mine just happened to be different so and i the more that i think about it i go back to the

Alexstory about how he was reading all these books and you know educating himself and still was like I it's I'm gay what it's it's fine it's fine which is always something that I put in my head for decades and the one other thing that that hit really really hard was when he talked about

having to wear dresses at red carpet events for, you know, celebrity things. And he even notes like, you know, my publicist would get all of this ready for me. And, you know, she she thought that she was being helpful because she just thought I didn't like dresses. So it's not like he threw anybody under the bus but i know that feeling of i need to do a job or i need to look away for certain people

and i'm going to grin and bear it and have my nails make my palms bleed because my fists are so clutching oh that's some terrible imagery but i understand oh i mean you just gotta clutch the oh is that why clutches are called clutches because you clutch them like the purse uh yes i think so oh god i'm so gay oh i feel like this is the story that resonated with you the most as

well yeah but do you know why um no actually i don't think so so uh he said i have a quote where

Mattiehe said that he can't look at photos from the night at the oscars for juno because of the pictures and stuff and seeing himself in the dress on the red carpet and how unhappy and uncomfortable he looked in those photos and it made me think about how my grandma dressed me up for prom and she was really intent on helping me find the perfect dress and like tailoring it to my body and like taking me to get my hair done and like all this stuff and it made me miserable and I can't look back on those prom pictures and like I can't even see myself like

I am not someone who has gotten rid of pictures from myself in the past because I don't consider that a dead part of my life I consider my entire life part of like an evolution or a journey and I don't want to forget any of that that's just me it's part of your transition I think you've said before right and i remember when my grandma found out that i was trans she actually said to my dad that prom must have been hell and she felt so bad for that experience and wishes she

could make it up to me and so i just like thinking about that and being forced to dress up and hearing her say that it it just that's why i resonated with that part so much because it was

Alexit's beautiful so you can't tell me these stories when we're recording a live show oh my gosh i

Mattiedidn't know she said that that's beautiful oh there you go that's why i shared it because it's true emotion true raw emotion which is our show so would you like to hear what uh i thought you

Alexwere going to reference yes our wedding photos oh i love our wedding photos and it's you pre-transition but we both look incredibly happy um i was incredibly happy i was not pretending in those photos i just want you to know that thank you yeah eight years later i did make that assumption um but technically five five five years since our

wedding we need to stop doing relationship math everyone should stop doing relationship math it's very confusing the thing that i was worried about you know like like most folks reasonably are like does this make you feel uncomfortable because you you in our wedding pictures you're not like super femme but i think you're wearing um makeup and earrings you know and like a women's sweater

Mattieand not that clothes should be gendered but like definitely more femme clothes however in my prom pictures i still had long hair like i hadn't even i didn't even identify as gay yet or didn't know i was gay so I was like high femme in those pictures I still had long hair wore a long dress wore high heels had lots of makeup had like so I was what I would consider very feminine in those photos whereas I had embraced presenting more masculine by the time we got married exactly and that's kind

Alexof what Elliot was alluding to is that it wasn't even necessarily that he looked so femme it's that

Mattiehe looked so miserable right that was oh like a gut punch because I um look at the pictures from

Alexour friend's wedding from uh two two years ago the last wedding we went to um pre-covid pandemic and those don't make me sad that you were wearing a dress yeah and it made it like i hated wearing that dress but also like we were amongst friends and you know like i was able to put on a comfy bra i think and then we all smoked a bunch of weed and like it's which is why i think both of

us can look back on older photos that you know sure they don't bring out trans joy but it's still joy you know just because euphoria can exist with independent of gender you know that's the majority of the time i'm happy is well like i i have a computer euphoria most of the time i guess

Mattiei i think it's more laughing because it's so true i think it's more of because we were around our friends and felt comfortable just being ourselves and didn't feel judged at all like you could have been wearing whatever you wanted and it would have been fine

Alexyou know yeah there were people like in jeans there it was great but oh god fine we'll talk about it now a long brace yourself so you're you're gonna take most of this matthew because after this interview um two three weeks later elliot page posted another picture of himself on instagram uh and he's just walking out of a pool shirtless and and it says baby's first swim

trunks and then the queer internet started screaming at each other before we get into all

Mattiethe negative stuff from the queer community i want to talk about his trans joy because i think that part is most important and that picture was not to make anyone compare themselves to him it was not forced upon the community like ah look at me I'm living my life I am a thin able-bodied white male presenting person and this is what the trans community should look like

no he posted that picture because or this is how I perceive it he posted that picture because he was experiencing true happiness and joy in his body and what i got from it and he looked cute

Alexyeah he looked hot let's be real he looked hot because his hair was hiding because you know well i i'm not above saying elliot listen you're a millionaire you need a haircut like if we're gonna like if we're gonna yell at elliot page let's just talk about be like talk about that hairstyle

Mattieyeah put some hair gel in it you'll look fine you're too hot to have this hair buddy come on we all know that you have a thing with hair ruining attraction for you wink wink nudge nudge

Alexwhat does i don't even know what you're winking or nudging at because you hated my hair before i

Mattiegot it cut and didn't think i was attractive until i had short hair oh yeah i forgot about

Alexthat okay moving on sorry what were you saying what were you saying i was saying that i was

Mattiething that that picture wasn't to be like here is how the trans community should look that picture i think he has not said anything was to be like expressing his joy and showing that trans adults can live happy lives and he talked about in the oprah interview speaking directly to trans youth and just literally said, I see you and you matter.

And I think that moment of like pure gender euphoria was to be like, hey, look, you can live a happy life.

AlexI don't even think that that picture was that profound.

MattieI think he was just like, hey, look at me.

AlexI got some swim trunks. Here's my pool.

MattieHot boy summer. Hot boy summer.

Alexand then i was i looked at him ah look at look at you and but it could be both he could be uh he

Mattiecould be profound and he could also just be showing off his body and you know what like that is okay people take thirst trap selfies all the time trans people are people let them take and post thirst trap selfies without it being a huge discourse now let's talk about the discourse

AlexNo, you can talk about the discourse and I can make upset noises because, oh, God. Like, I saw this picture of Elliot Page and was like, you hottie.

MattieSploosh.

AlexI was like, oh, hottie, get your hair cut. Put gel in your hair. But not everybody took it that way. How did, you've alluded to it, but Matt, how did some people perceive that picture?

MattieA lot of people, I'm specifically speaking about TikTok because this is where I have seen all this anger.

AlexI would lump it into Twitter as much as I muted it.

MattieYeah, I'm not really on Twitter, but let's say all the social media platforms and leave out Facebook because that's a dumpster fire. uh everyone was like how angry not everyone the queer community went up in arms like how dare you show off your privilege basically and what the fuck i just want to say what the fuck stop gatekeeping stop gatekeeping people in your own community

i just i can't it how dare you i walk out of your swimming pool he was just interviewed

Alexby a billionaire like just walking out of a pool he's just walking out of a pool

Mattieokay calm down we all know i it should go without saying that he's a movie star he has money it gave him access to transition early and get, you know, top surgery and have killer abs. And he's not, the picture wasn't like, hey, this is how everyone should look. It was not a like flagship picture for the trans community. It wasn't showing off privilege and everyone got so angry.

And there is a problem with, I've done this, comparing myself to other, you know, people on the internet, trans progress, pictures, all of that stuff. And yeah, that is a problem. We should see more fat people. We should see more trans people of color, different body shapes and sizes. and unfortunately a lot of the pictures and rhetoric are you know thin white men or male

presenting trans people and i fit into that category i realized that i have privilege passing privilege all that stuff that's not what he was trying to do he wasn't walking out of the pool he was just posting a picture that made him happy and the community lost their minds and it goes without saying he is wealthy and can afford top surgery top surgery is expensive transitioning is hard it takes time yeah he has money and privilege we get it that's not he wasn't trying

to I feel like the community lost its mind because they thought he was shoving it in people's faces and that is not what was happening and everyone just needs to stop gatekeeping each other take a freaking deep breath and let Elliot have some trans joy. And that's all I am going to say on it because it makes me so mad.

AlexThe reason that I really had to log off and just not look at any sort of comments or freaking essays or any of this was because I was reading it. I'm like, yep, this is why I didn't come out. It wasn't because my parents weren't supportive. It wasn't because I didn't have access to a supportive local community.

It was because I knew that the queer community would jump all over me. And they have for things that I've done before. And I'm like, if this was any other, like, hot dude coming out of a pool, if this was Chet Hanks, why can Chet Hanks carry around and listen?

MattieChris Emsworth, like anybody.

AlexI would bet that the majority of people who are saying things like Elliot Page is doing damage to the trans community by flexing his privilege and presenting an unrealistic view of transness haven't thought about him since like fucking juno like what are you let him live his life

he's what he's a little bit older than us what like 34 i think yeah and like he what what what could he do to make all of these people happy being a visible

Mattiehealthy active trans person is something that should make the community happy they should be supporting and lifting up other trans voices and not tearing them down and we all hopefully recognize that there should be more trans people of color you know that should be held up as flagships of the community but that doesn't mean we need to tear down other trans people that's literally destroying the narrative of everyone transitions differently and transition looks

different on everyone why tear down this one person i don't understand i don't understand

Alexbecause it's easier to be the bullies that treated us like shit than it is to extend our just sort of open our minds and there are some people who that that gatekeeping is intentional because they want to see someone who looks more gay or more trans like i saw folks mad that he

Mattiepasses and i'm like what that's not his fault you can't control if you pass or not that's just not something you can control like what what is it's not it's not like he's saying i am better than you because I pass you know what I mean like that I don't I don't understand he was releasing in my opinion a positive narrative an image into the community and if you have a problem with that just go talk to the republicans on facebook that they'll agree with you I know but they will they

Alexwill happily embrace you and tell you that elliot page is terrible and he should not ever say anything on we probably are gonna have to cut all that no no because I truly believe like that the bullying and gatekeeping that is happening in our own community in our own community and by trans adults it's it's like a like you don't get to i don't know it's just i understand some of the rhetoric from younger people because you know i was that way too and i

Mattieangry and like hard you're angry you can't transition there's all these i mean we can't talk about this without mentioning all the you know bans and terrible bills that are affecting

Alextrans youth like but you know what would probably help those trans youth to see just a basic normal ass trans person posting on instagram like it's no big deal but no and he also mentioned all that

Mattiein his interview and like talked about all of it in fact all the anti-trans bills and how youth need life-saving gender-affirming care and he went on a thing where he debunked all the stuff that republicans are saying and how they're going after trans youth like it's just it's all in the interview he's not giving out negative rhetoric and we don't need

to attack him we need to support each other and not attack the people in our own community

Alexend of end of my rant i like i can see how some people would think that i am being overly sensitive about a celebrity being bullied on the internet. No, I don't think Elliot Page cares about what other people think of him anymore, but I sure hope slash think, based on everything I've seen him do from Juno to Umbrella Academy, it's probably breaking his

fucking heart i i don't want to assume anybody's emotions i'm sorry but like i if i posted a picture like that and someone came at me i'd be like okay fine but but you know who is seeing that you know all of elliott page's young fans who are seeing that and who look like him and then are like wait wait so but i can get top surgery now but i but i shouldn't because other people can't Wait, like, should I not? Should I come out? Should I not get top surgery right away?

MattieThe trans community attacking each other and making youth question themselves when there's already so much negative stuff going on in the trans community breaks my heart.

Alexif it could keep me in the closet for eight years think about all of those like lovely little baby gays and baby trans and just they're scrolling and seeing you know like like like me i am such a normal basic ass queer well like you're such a basic bitch i am well like i'm i'm such a fucking weirdo but it has nothing to do with my gender and to see just like this just to see

somebody who when i say looks like me um i'm i'm more mean just like the the basic ass regular new very like androgynous other than like his chest like it's like look at here my here here that is like literally if i were to post a picture of my chest it would be like oh look at my cute new uh swim trunks and like that would literally be the picture i would post and and i don't want

Mattiehim to not because of all this negative backlash like what if he just stops posting moments of gender euphoria like coming out like that and being so brave and then getting broken down is if that happened to me i was very lucky and then i got supported by everyone around me almost everyone around me um if that happened except me i was no i was sorry uh i would have gone back in the closet for sure i would have been i would have forced myself to be miserable

if that had happened to me and why do you want to do that to each other he said that he doesn't have to worry about just existing anymore and that really got to me because that's how I felt like I while I was dealing with getting sober and my mental illness I was so focused on that that I was focused on just existing and getting better and once I transitioned and especially once I got top surgery like I can just be myself now I don't have to think about other

than when I'm doing this show or when I want to you know want to I don't have to think about my body or my gender anymore I can just be me and why can't we celebrate that he said that he has freedom to do more and be more creative because he's not constantly just trying to exist and shouldn't we celebrate that? Isn't that something that we should lift up? And shouldn't the rhetoric just be that trans people are just people that want to live their lives and be happy?

AlexI completely agree. When people ask why we don't put out more of these episodes, I say it's really hard for me to edit them because let alone record them like we have so much um i almost said footage so much tape of us talking about things and of me just

spewing all of my gender feels into my phone and it's been incredibly helpful but i

Mattiei i don't want to say that i struggle to exist sometimes if i may sometimes your dysphoria is so bad that you just can't talk about gender that day and it's hard for you and it's hard for you to just exist and it hurts me to see you hurting but I think I've said this in gender

therapy that recording these and talking is a type of therapy for me and therapy is hard it makes you cry sometimes and in therapy can be a rough experience so oh bitch don't make me cry oh so i understand that even if this is therapeutic for you it can still be incredibly difficult and that doesn't mean that you don't have moments of gender euphoria or positive associations with this show in your gender journey it just means that sometimes it's too hard and you don't want to

get floods of dms that give you hate but i also if i can speak for both of us i also think those messages that unfortunately are few and far between that are um positive and say what a positive impact or like how great it is sharing this stuff like that makes it worth it even when

Alexyou're having a really hard time yeah 100 i was just thinking that even if right now if i would be like nope going back into the closet i'm going to go by alexandra exclusively now i

Mattiemean i don't think yeah you're kind of already out publicly i don't think that would really work

Alexfor you. I mean, well, you would be surprised at how, uh, just going to change your name,

Mattiego off the grid, buy a passport, do some, uh, orphan black stuff. Oh yeah. I was going to say,

AlexI'm not going to talk about how I'll do it, but I'm definitely going to, I mean, I have plans of how we could get married and trick the Catholic church into marrying us, but another episode, another episode. Yeah. It's, but honestly, it's mostly, um, too many logistics, but I think about the message gosh i really hopefully by the time you're hearing this if you've sent me or Mattie one of those kind messages or any message just being like oh hey uh follow up on the bathroom

thing or oh hey like thank you thank you thank you thank you a million times thank you those

Mattiemean so much to us it makes not that we need them to make this show but like that's why we want to make this show and keep making it because if someone gets just one person gets something positive out of it and it touches yeah it's just important i wish i had had something like that when i was struggling so when i was 17 you know so and i also like it when people ask me boring

Alexquestions or about computers no question about computers is boring um but disagree um like i i love when folks ask oh what's a good honorific for uh non-binary people and i'm like well mix is sort of one but we're you know it's like how do you you do sir and ma'am for a non-binary person and i really like your excellency one of my faves like it's it's such a great that's my

I know this sounds a little bit strange, but that's one of my favorite questions to get because it's something that comes up day to day. Isn't necessarily a big deal, but can just be so draining if you're being called sir or ma'am constantly. You know what I mean?

MattieI hate that customer service people have to do that. I hate it so much. Right. and even in queer inclusive neighborhoods like when i go to boystown they still have to do it and it's just something that like corporations make you do yeah i hate it i hate it i hate it

Alexyeah that's i mean that's always the main thing i tell folks is if you're being called sir or ma'am uh it's probably because someone is being paid to to do so uh so it's polite i mean

MattieAnd they could honestly just say, how may I help you? Or I can help who's next. You don't have to put sir or ma'am at the end. I worked in retail for 10 years and I very rarely gendered people. So they could just try a little harder.

AlexHey, thank you so much, everybody, for listening. And as always, for just being kind.

MattieBe kind too. That's what I want to say. if you are in the trans community or even if you're a cis person or just an ally be kind to

Alexone another i know that's cheesy but like spread some kindness if bud light can give me more gender euphoria than another trans person something's probably wrong

MattieShould we transition I A to

18. Bored and Mean 0:00 / 00:44:14