13. Coward Haircut
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Alex and Mattie discuss body hair and the gendered implications that go along with it. Warning that between 19:05-25:00 we discuss *ahem* "personal grooming."
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Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesAlexHi, I'm Alex Cox. And I'm Mattie Cox. This is a queer podcast about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl.
Mattieyou're gonna tell me about body hair we are going to share about body hair and what it means in relation to gender because body hair is there's a lot of stigma around it there's a lot of
opinions around it how I would like to divide it up in this episode is talking about how it how it relates to gender like in society how we are perceived because of our body hair do you want
Alexme to start with the obvious one for me at least that kind of is a lesbian stereotype not a lesbian stereotype uh a gay stereotype for pretty much all afab people is the the idea of there's a right of cutting off your hair and it for a lot of people it symbolizes you know this haircut which is either you know a pixie cut or even like a bob or something it used to be slash is kind of this
thing that's seen as a rite of passage at least for me in fact I'm going to interject and argue
Mattiehere because it's also a rite of passage that first hair chop is usually the moment of gender euphoria for a lot of trans guys and or non-binary people wanting to present more masculine it's
Alexkind of like a time honored tradition for a lot of afab people whether they be gay bi queer whatever or just trans that when you get the hair chop as it's often called or the haircut is a symbol to yourself you usually a symbol to yourself and to others and to the community i think it's like
MattieI got my hair chop. Look at me. I'm gay. Do you want to talk about your hair chop first and when
Alexyou got it and how it felt? Also, I hate that term hair hair chop. Okay. Your first gay haircut. Is that how you would like to? I mean, is that what like the baby gays call it now?
MattieYour first queer haircut. I mean, it is a rite of passage. I we're generalizing. Sure. But for us. right uh we of course I mean every time we record are talking about our experiences so may not apply to everybody but how was it for you your first haircut how old were you just
Alexjust tell me about it I remember it being actually I was a coward and sort of went halfsies uh I don't know how like I should almost put pictures in notes because it's I I want to do
Mattielike a series of like start with my hair how it was my my coward hair chop my my Bieber my very long Bieber style and then my first like I'm embracing myself as trans mask haircut because
AlexI definitely had those four stages well as money-grubbing pay pigs uh I think we should encourage people to subscribe to our patreon at patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm because that's where we'll put the pictures mostly because i do not want those pictures on instagram
Mattielet's get back on track and talk about your coward haircut as you called it in grade school
AlexI always had fairly long hair for, well, for me, obviously, down to my shoulders.
MattieLong blonde hair.
AlexIt was like a dirty blonde. Almost everybody in my, this is boring, everybody in my family typically has lighter hair. And then as we grow old and feeble, it goes pretty brown. And I should say this long hair, unless I was forced to, it was pretty much always in a ponytail. 100% unless it was a fancy yeah unless it was like a fancy occasion it was like okay if I'm wearing a dress I'm probably you know having like the
fancy haircut and oh I remember straightening my hair like we were very young when hair straightening was a thing
Mattieno I not till middle school for me so 2002
Alexuh still in 2002 i was what 11 12 years yeah and uh shouldn't have had this very hot thing to make like it was basically a an iron for your hair the chunky it was the style of the
Mattiechunky highlights the blonde chunky blonde streaks and the bangs to the side that were flat and like plastered to your forehead that was definitely the style oh yeah that was definitely
Alexoh gosh well go to patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm it's brutal the second phase of my gay haircut journey was right before high school I got not quite a bob but you know hair short enough that I could not put it in a ponytail because I wanted to always I know I wanted to wear my hair down more often because I wanted to you know try to I don't think at that point I knew I was I
liked other ladies but I just wanted to look more feminine so that I would blend in at high school
Mattiein high school you know you had the hyper feminine phase like internal denial oh I mean that would
Alexcome later. But then in high school, sports happened. So I kind of let it grow out a little bit more. And then once again, ponytail all the way. And even in college, my first year of college, ponytail all the way. And then right before my second year of school started, I told the stylist I I remember going to like a fancy hair place and saying I just um want it all gone and
the way she acted was it is not a way that someone would have reacted in 2020 let's say I'm pretty sure she said why are you doing this you have such beautiful hair and then I kind of sat there and she kept being like you sure you sure as she continued to cut it shorter and shorter and like yep yep but that was probably the worst haircut of my life like I remember
thinking oh god like the most stressful or it was the ugliest it was by far the ugliest I think at least I perceived myself as very fat because freshman 15 you know like oh I just like most people at 1920 didn't feel great about myself and then the next time I went to get my hair cut I specifically like scheduled it with a different person because it was in the suburbs and I went
on I went on this uh like website for the uh salon that basically my mom went to and found a stylist who had short hair so I was like okay she probably won't think it's weird and then I essentially got what is kind of my haircut now I it hasn't really like it is slightly ebbed and flowed with like fashions in terms of the fade and stuff but uh it's pretty basic yeah I uh your
Mattiehair has been from pictures that I've seen because I hadn't met you when you were 19 but has stayed pretty much in the same the same style since you were 19 yeah I'm pretty boring no it's not boring at all i mean like the length and the fades have changed but like i think you've also like we both kind of had the floppier hair as was the style it was like the pixie cut i almost want to call it
Alexthe alice cullen can we do that from twilight see i just i i didn't really ever have that phase well because i i did not have what again stylists would have referred to as a face no as uh the right face shape for that like it's it's definitely not a karen haircut it's hard to explain eventually and i can't really remember when this started but i ended up having nightmares about my hair
growing back to my shoulders and yeah didn't know until much later that that's super common
MattieYeah, especially with trans guys, definitely common.
AlexAnd I've heard from a lot of trans women that they have nightmares about their hair being cut off. So it goes both ways. I guess I understand why, because we equate gender with our frickin' haircuts.
MattieA lot more back in 2008, 2009 than currently. Like I feel like it's much more acceptable slash common now for people to not give you the look if you have short hair. Like it became within the past decade, it's become a lot more acceptable because a lot of celebrities that were straight cut their hair short. You know what I mean? It became popularized in media. my first haircut journey was very similar to yours I had very long straight thin brown hair
and put it in a ponytail or a bun all the way until I was 19 and then I got it cut like uh pixie cut and it was pretty long it was still below my chin on the sides and then I was like screw it and I cut it all off and I dyed my bangs not the best look and then I didn't cut it really short actually until after I met you I very long time had like
the Bieber like bangs I had long bangs and like long sides and it was very like swish it flick to the side Bieber-y if you recall but I I had a friend that was like you're not gonna pick up any any ladies no one's gonna know you're gay when I identified as lesbian no one's gonna know and unless you cut your hair and I remember freshman year of college they gave me like clothing like typical lesbian clothing advice they uh took me to the store to pick out like my first flannel
and my my jeans and stuff and they gave me recommendations for haircuts and I probably didn't go about it the best way but ultimately it ended up being empowering and then I never cut my hair like super queer short until like 2015 was the the first time so I was like 20 well I want to say actually like 2013 I was like 23 the first time I cut it like really short and moved out of the Bieber stage but my my friend told me it was like a it it was the lesbian calling
card the lesbian signal to say look I'm queer I have short hair oh my god it was an afab version
Alexof uh what's it flagging when yeah basically dudes would have handkerchiefs in their pocket of uh look at my short hair and my flannel and my dockers yeah but with gen z-ers i'm like okay you're either gay or really cool or both i have no idea or just want to shave half of your head uh yeah or like me you have really thick hair and it is very hot in the summer or punk rock i mean it's there's many exactly you're too cool it's so it's so different now uh the like hair and
Mattiegender expression it's just grown oh god it's grown so much
Alexyou're forgetting i think a hair phase you had because i met you when we were sophomores in
Mattiecollege my blonde hair are we talking about my blonde biebery hair no because i liked that hair
Alexand it was less beabery than you remember because you were hot uh you met me before my haircut yeah when i still had a ponytail i don't know if we've told this story but uh we've told it but go ahead
Mattieyeah no you were just not my type yeah you didn't you don't find women attractive until they have
Alexshort hair no you usually you just weren't weren't my type you came on very strong about buffy not
Mattieabout flirting i came on very strong about my my likes i oh yeah that's that's yeah yeah but
Alexbut i came on very strong i don't mean that you were i i truly couldn't tell if you were hitting on me or you were super excited about buffy and i we but we digress yes i i agree do you want to
Mattiewe've done head hair head hair do you want to talk about body hair and gender because i feel like when getting your hair cut that's like the signal for or it was the signal for look i'm queer but body hair and keeping body hair and the lack of body hair is so much more gendered even today like that has not changed people are still dicks about that whereas in the 70s if we if we wanted
Alexto do a history lesson and start back back in the day back so Gloria Steinem in 19 uh was the second
Mattiewave of feminism and lesbians didn't shave their arm hair and that's how you knew they were lesbians
Alexand honestly I was always I saying grossed out isn't is oh no you know what yeah uh I was problematic and I thought it was I thought it was gross um to keep uh underarm hair Yeah, because I, whenever I tried to not shave and I fucking hated it because my hair is so thick that it, for me, it just felt uncomfortable and gross. So I assumed that it was gross for everybody else.
Am I not gay because I want to shave under my arms? Am I not gay because I keep shaving my legs? What does this mean?
MattieWell, I remember getting teased in middle school because that was the first time you had to wear shorts around classmates because of gym clothes. For gym class, we had to change into gym clothes. And I remember getting teased when I was 12 years old for not shaving my legs. And I cannot tell you how thin. Before testosterone, my leg hair was so thin you could barely see it. Correct. and my mom was like you don't want to start shaving your legs because then you're going
to have to keep shaving your legs which is true it's not a myth it is true it doesn't come back thicker but like you're gonna get scratchy and I yeah I remember getting teased for not shaving my legs when I was 12 like what the hell what the hell is that I mean this isn't the first episode
Alexpeople have have heard uh it's gender norms you know like um I was definitely shaving by 12 and
MattieI mean I didn't go through puberty until I didn't have underarm hair like I didn't go through puberty until I was 16 so so jealous first puberty second puberty whole nother thing so I started shaving my legs and under my arms and in middle school even if I needed to or didn't have you always shaved everywhere do you want to talk about shaving your your whole arms in particular or no
AlexI didn't get teased about my leg hair ever because I started shaving early and every single day out of I mean kind of necessity because I assumed that I probably would have been teased to the point actually where I mean actually I think I know I know I would be teased because I was teased because of my arm hair because it was dark and thick right it was dark and thick I mean we're not talking like Robin Williams level arm hair but enough that like I was always physically
Mattieaware of it. Hairy Polish Yetis. You get it from your brother, your brothers. And that was another
Alexthing that before high school, I decided I am going to shave my arms because I can't look like a girl like this or so I thought. And I do want to say that it again, like I noticed it so much that it was physically uncomfortable for me like it itchy like it was super thick and not in the good uh double c way like and ends with a ck and I didn't enjoy it so uh yeah then I shaved my arms
every day for I well actually I still kind of do we're not kind no I still do the trend the trend
Mattiein high school in 2004 was everything for afab people and to be hyper feminine everything shaved
Alexclean shaven oh right because it's incredibly feminine and in fact i didn't know that a lot of women shaved their arm shaved wax lasered whatever uh removed their arm hair until well into high school at that point though it wasn't that i knew other high schoolers did it
Mattiedo we want to get to the embarrassing hair i just what i meant to say is the very personal hair i didn't even know that you could completely not have any hair there until college yeah i thought you always so like i groomed i maintained i like a like a little bit of a hedge
Alextrimmer down there little a little triangle if you will i'm so sorry i'm so sorry if any of you know if any of you know us in real life and also don't want this information and now have it i'm so
Mattiesorry just don't listen for the next like five minutes but i didn't know you could completely have nothing there because i was told it was unhealthy to have nothing there yeah because it messed with the ph and the healthy flora and fauna of your downstairs which is a little bit true actually you're more susceptible to get infections like even just yeast infections
Alexhuh i am not an expert on this because you know back back in ye olden days that was true because like you didn't want sand in your pussy but I thought that kind of had been debunked like technically I mean you can get crabs that I got like yeah so I guess technically that's true but it still feels like you were being shamed or am I reading that wrong I wasn't being shamed I think
I was just given the wrong information by my gynecologist oh okay interesting because I was still seeing a pediatrician when I had made the decision to in high school oh yeah um I saw my pediatrician until I was 18 because I was if you're not sexually active you don't need a pap smear until you're 18 well a big big asterisk here that was how it was in 2008 so
i'm old and i i have no idea what it's like now remember we grew up and you're a year older than me but like i was one of the first people that my doctor ever gave the hp vaccine to uh because at that point hpv yes the hpv vaccine too which is for what in case people don't know is it human papillomavirus okay there we go all right thank you um but actually uh i i had actually made this
decision again i was not having you know any sort of sexual contact in in high school whatsoever But let's just say it's a little bit personally uncomfortable, like literally just like, ow. So I got rid of everything there and continued onwards. Because again, that for sure, unlike my arms, was a personal choice that had nothing to do with anything. Like I would, I would, I would not be talking about this to anyone ever if it wasn't for this.
MattieI mean, I just groomed down there because that's what the women around me and my friends did. And then I, and I just didn't know it was an option to be completely, you know, nothing.
AlexAll right. So I kind of got off track. One, how did you know that the women around you were doing that? And two, who told you it was unhealthy? Because my doctor, my pediatrician, didn't say it was unhealthy. She said, oh, what you girls are doing today is just so unnatural. You're going to have to do that for the rest of your life. You know, you should. I'm probably exaggerating a bit.
MattieA little.
AlexI just remember being poor thing.
MattieUnless she was a Karen.
AlexOh, yeah.
Mattieso it was my gynecologist that was like you need you need some hair down there to be healthy and I think I think that was just misinformation in 2006 from my gynecologist but how did I know the women around me were grooming that way because you never talked with your friends at like sleepovers about stuff like that nope oh well I didn't go to catholic school so we weren't prudes oh we
Alexdefinitely talked about weird stuff but it was like computers and oh you were a nerd yeah you were a nerd gotcha I mean even if I was like a cis straight girl there would have been no action for me in high school like sure sexuality plays into it a bit but I just was at a catholic school
Mattieso yeah i would like to move on and i would like to talk about uh body hair and gender now because it is much different especially for me going through second puberty is it different is your relation to body hair different now as well that you openly identify as non-binary because i have
Alexa lot to say so let's have you go first I'm well I mean like we said there were so many sort of body hair norms pushed upon us that a part of the reason I was always like nah I'm definitely I'm all girl I I'm I'm all girl because I like getting rid of hair I want as little hair
Mattieas possible so I'm definitely a girl also manscaping wasn't really a thing back then unless you were unless you were in sports like uh as far as i'm aware what i knew about the male
Alexpopulation at 16 which was not okay you said we were moving on and now i'm sorry well but like
Mattiemanscaping wasn't super popular back then like now it is and in the past like decade it has become a big thing but manscaping unless you were like a swimmer or in sports and wanted to be faster
Alextrack and stuff like that. Oh my god. Okay, moving the heck on. I mean, I remember specifically sort of the end-ish years of high school and beginning of college, my chin hair got even thicker and I had always plucked it. Oh, we didn't even talk about eyebrows. I have always plucked my eyebrows same and i still do actually same here i still pluck chin hair and eyebrow hair
and it makes me incredibly self-conscious when i don't i'm a little more loose about it now like
Mattiei'll because to be uh masculine presenting or as far as i like to masculinely present having a little bit bushier of an eyebrow helps me pass and and tends to help guys right uh and
Alexand that's why again I wanted to femme up my face basically also back then thin barely there and or penciled in eyebrows was the trend oh that's interesting because the first time I got my eyebrows waxed it was a suggestion from my mom which again I don't think she did it out of malice at all in fact i'd like to i should ask her oh that'd probably make her feel guilty no i think
Mattieit i'm i'm sure it was just like a suggestion like you're at that age now actually uh i mean
Alexyeah the more that i think about it like she also suggested or asks asked if i wanted to get like highlights so maybe it was uh like a mother-daughter bonding thing who knows but i don't regret it
Mattiebecause I don't know I'm fine with my eyebrows yeah but you do have a new really from what I've noticed after being together for eight years you have a new relationship with body hair now where you don't seem as concerned there there are new developments not really leg hair oh I mean this
Alexwinter I decided to not shave my legs because it's winter um I should yeah I should actually say When I say that I shaved my legs every day in high school up until this winter, I meant it. Like there were very, very, very few days. Like I could count them on my hands, like definitely less than 10. And a part of that probably is because we always wore skirts to high school because.
MattieOh, right. Yeah.
Alexso it you know and plus gym class so you know i have five o'clock shadow on on my legs it's true i was like we've been married for a while i'm just gonna not shave my legs this winter and you were like why are you even telling me this uh except you sounded like less of an ass sometimes i'm an ass but not at that yeah you were you were nice you're like oh of course uh that's that's super interesting that you haven't done that before sure and I feel like this is
typically a super boring topic and probably is still super boring topic because a lot of folks now regardless of gender and even regardless of like the rest of their gender expression they just don't shave their legs which if you have thin hair I totally get but me even during winter when my leg hair gets really long like no you can you can like feel it when I'm like walking around
Mattieyou can feel it like rubbing against your jeans right yes yes yes yes like if my pants aren't
Alexsuper tight I am always aware of my leg hair and not even in the sometimes it pinches so I mean uh I'm probably not gonna shave my legs this winter I I don't know that'll be that'll be
Mattienice but it's weird trying to tie this back into gender is it a type of this winter was it a bit of an exploration in gender and being non-binary or was it just uh I'm lazy and I don't care because this was pre-quarantine when you made this decision it was back in December so right
Alexright right in fact I remember all right this is gross I body hair doesn't have to be gross I
Mattieunderstand for everyone listening I understand that we are saying it's gross because I that's how we grew up people made us feel like body hair was gross and this is something we have internalized body hair is not gross and you do not need to be grossed out by it I would say
Alexthat it's okay to be grossed out when your own body hair clogs a sink after by your own body
Mattiehair again we are not trying to stigmatize any we are not trying to stigmatize any body hair this is how we were raised and honestly it took uh coming out as trans and going on testosterone for me to be more comfortable with my body hair but we will get to that did you not find it gross when the
Alexfirst time i shaved my legs in what three months i there was literally so much hair that it clogged
Mattieour showered we had to use straight up that is gross yes but i'm not saying you having the body
Alexhair was gross right exactly uh it was that removal process sure was but was not shaving
Mattieas you dance around the question was not shaving your legs part of non-binary exploration or
Alexwas it just you're like I'm lazy I don't want to do this I think a mix um because I had never felt comfortable enough before to not shave so i guess uh thank you my friend for making me feel comfortable enough to be like let's just try this you're welcome my friend so it was usually nice all in all i think i preferred not shaving my leg hair in the winter but i still
still shave my arm hair in the winter um do you think you'll ever not do it in the summer no because it's too warm it's literally too warm like i have the the reason i have so much body hair is hereditary but it's because i have so much testosterone for an afab person me not doing in the summer um is just because you get too warm i mean yeah i i actually do have like a little bit
of stubble today and yes it makes me self-conscious but also now i'm 30 and we're in quarantine and who the fuck cares um but uh yeah it's just that like it's literally uncomfortable physically uncomfortable right right which means i still have a kind of a complicated relationship with body hair because it's still something i think about all the time because i'm like well if i was non-binary why would i care it's all over the spectrum and then i'm like oh right that's kind
of what defines a lot of non-binary folks is that they're very uncomfortable with certain parts of their body uh having or not having hair because of truly and but not because of gender necessarily
Mattiedoes that make sense do you think it's because of dysphoria or because of society or because of
Alexboth i for me uh i don't know i think it's a little bit of both but that's something that i'm still figuring out and still talking with talking about in therapy because that's such
Mattiethat's why i think this is such an important topic again i hate that we said gross so much But that's just the relationship of how we grew up experiencing body hair. But I think both of our relationships with it have changed in a positive way.
AlexRight. And the reason I think that I like talking about it is because, especially now, a lot of AMAB folks and trans women, a lot of them are keeping body hair that's considered less feminine or whatever. and it's silly obviously it's it's silly it's so so silly but it's something that we're all feeling across the gender and sexuality spectrums and it's kind of a bummer and I agree and I
definitely think a lot of that is societal pressure we're all having these feelings of doubt about our relationship to our hair how about you because now you have thicker hair because of the
Mattietestosterone well in some places the elaborate uh well where do you want me to start because
Alexfrom the from the top if you will aha that's that's the saddest tell us about your uh head hair and also i disagree i don't think it's the saddest part well i've been on testosterone in
MattieOctober it'll be three years and I want to say I noticed back in when did we see Ludo last November
Alexso I want to say it was October 31st through November 2nd we saw them we saw them four times
Mattiein three nights it was beautiful so so almost a year ago as I started noticing hair loss which happens with testosterone and can start anywhere from uh it usually starts at about two years on t and i noticed hair loss at the crown of my head so like the back and at the the side of my head where um your temples are and it was particularly bad in the back and slowly getting worse and it's genetic on my mom's side the men go bald and so I still and do feel really
self-conscious about it but I started using generic Rogaine and it actually really helped so I've regained some of my confidence that way but once hair loss starts on testosterone it continues like it can stagnate which is what has happened with me and I'm so grateful and I definitely think the Rogaine has helped stagnate it but I've definitely been cutting my hair shorter and shorter because I feel it getting thinner and I feel like my hairline is receding
in front but not drastically it's mostly just the the part in in back where I was losing hair and it's the one negative side effect that really like hit me hard and a lot of guys worry about it when they start t so i've had a very tumultuous relationship with the hair on my head i always
Alexthink that's interesting because losing your hair is associated with masculine folks so i was kind
Mattieof confused well i don't want to be bald even cis men don't want to be bald well that's i i know but
Alexthat's the thing if your goal was to pass wouldn't sort of balding not be fine but wouldn't it be better to be uh bald or balding uh no absolutely not that is not something even uh i mean for some
Mattiepeople it may be fine they may not mind i am now 30 and i i just don't want to no offense i'm going to have a very visceral reaction if we talk about this because i don't want to lose my hair it's uh it's one of the reasons one of the reasons and we can get into this later but it's one of the reasons i am stopping testosterone soon not because i'm detransitioning but because of hair loss that
Alexis another episode though um because it's not just your hair right there are a lot of other things i I don't want some turfs to get all up in here and be like, say, say, because detransitioning is very much a hot topic.
MattieAnd also very different. Again, it's a different episode, but me losing my hair isn't like I'm stuffing testosterone because I don't want to be bald. That's not it. There are a lot of other factors and it is a whole nother episode.
AlexSo just like going on HRT or any, you know, just like going on hormones, going off them has some benefits and drawbacks. It goes both ways. Tell me about the positive changes you've made to the relationship you have with your hair.
Mattiewell I three months on tea got my first little baby chin hairs and I now have five o'clock shadow on my chin and have to shave every day and like my and my mustache and I love it so much and I love shaving and feeling the stubble and I love leaving it for a couple days and while I don't have a full beard and probably won't and never will just having it is also genetic and just having that little bit like of stubble even around like my jawline and on my neck is super affirming
it it definitely I wanted and strived for a beard and the fact that I can't get one um or it would take a very long time just having the stubble is very affirming and like the five o'clock shadow Like I think that that actually helped almost completely get rid of my beard dysphoria because I was like, look, I do have stubble. And that is like definitely a part of dysphoria because some guys, some non-binary people have a full beard after like a year on testosterone.
And I was like, I'm almost on testosterone for three years. There is no facial hair. But then to realize that I need to shave my chin and my face every day because of that five o'clock shadow just contributed to so much, you know, gender euphoria. So everyone transitions in different ways and at their own pace and hormones affect everyone differently. And for me, that is and was like a small win, you know.
AlexYes. And I will say, and I guess what is in my own defense, the reason I hate it, I don't think is any sort of outward or inward transphobia. It's just now I understand. I understand all of the people who date dudes who like do the cute little, ah, feel my stubble. It hurts. It hurts me so much. And that's when I am like, okay.
MattieShave your face.
AlexGo shave when you kiss the top of my head, which is adorable on Instagram. And people are like, oh, you guys are so cute. And I'm like, no. What he just did was stab my scalp with all of his stubble. And no, bad, bad, bad, bad. And I've got this complicated relationship, though, because then sometimes you are so happy about it. But usually when you are intentionally stabbing my scalp or my cheeks with your chin hair, no.
Bad. Thanks. I hate it. I like when you have stubble that's like, yeah, I shouldn't even say no. Either a little bit of baby stubble or when it's like grown out like a little bit, like a two day not shave type of situation. because then at least it's not like the little stabbies. Like the morning after you shave, it's when it's the worst. They're little daggers.
MattieI mean, my hair everywhere, except on the top of my head is thicker from testosterone. I, especially by my dad, the first thing that grew out more and became thicker was my leg hair. And I get teased by my dad. And you know what? He's just jealous. He just wants to have more leg hair than me. That's what I think. So, and that's definitely affirming in a lot of my trans mask and non-binary friends, like letting their leg hair grow and getting like that little like scum stash on T.
Those are the first two body hair changes that really give them a lot of euphoria. And I find that that was the same for me. So, and I probably won't shave my legs really. I don't see any need to. so it's also like my my hair is there's more of it and it's darker but it's not like thick like it doesn't hurt like your yours is stabby mine is not stabby I've always had I've always had thin hair so for my hair to thin even more on my head that's why it was like
a big deal I don't I didn't get super hairy from testosterone so I don't have chest hair maybe like one or two will pop up but i'm not i'm not a super hairy dude i have a little bit of a happy trail you want to say what happy trail is happy trail is hair from your stomach that
Alexleads down to your downstairs did you tell that we were both raised well you were kind of raised
Mattiecatholic i was raised catholic yeah and uh another thing that i started not doing once i started testosterone was shaving under my arms and guess what it makes you smell like you smell more when You don't, I have to groom it now, like keep it groomed because especially when I was recovering from top surgery, I couldn't lift my arms to shave under there. And the man stink, the man stink is strong.
AlexMm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I am agreeing vehemently only because I was the one applying.
MattieThe deodorant, yes.
Alexuh i am curious though because you like as you said you you groom your underarm hair is that something that a lot of cis guys do because i guess i don't see the point
Mattieis it just manscaping some guys completely don't have hair there anymore i thought it was just the balls i mean manscaping is for everywhere now because some women just don't like super hairy men i that's not i i say like super hairy men but unfortunately body hair is still such a gender binary in our society you have a beard you're or any facial hair you're a bro you're a dude you're a man and i just i i hate that i hate that for all my non-binary pals i i hate it so much i hate it
Alexfor everybody like man equal hair lady equal wax no no hair but you still have hair just
Mattieunderneath and it hurts hair isn't gross as long as it doesn't make you smell just just keep it just i mean seriously even some people like the musk even cis guys with beards that like let food get in it and don't like that's that's gross we're just i'm just saying like you know just
Alexwash it comb it wash it keep it clean i mean amongst our demographic of people in their mid 20s to mid 30s i don't think i know anybody who doesn't not just keep their beard clean but keep it uh like hipster grooved yeah oh my gosh like beard wax and stuff don't don't judge if you
Mattiehad a beard you would totally be be a beard wax dude i would i would yeah in my dreams in my dreams I'm a hipster lumberjack but I accept my I accept my facial hair or lack thereof for what it is you know what Thomas Sanders is a cis dude he is my age and he doesn't have any facial hair and by god he is a he is a manly man have you seen my brothers I mean they can at least grow some facial hair barely you know what that's true and they're like yeah we I have about as much
Alexfacial hair is my brother's i mean not not really but that's the thing i am exaggerating
Mattiebut only a little bit only a little that's what's upsetting it shouldn't be but uh it is do you have any uh parting thoughts on gender and body hair or just body hair in general i know that
Alexthis is probably an episode that's one of the more personal ones for us because you know um it's kind of interesting how fashion trends sort of correlate maybe not correlate but uh just like well i mean just like fashion trends they ebb and flow and maybe it's gonna be considered super hot to have leg hair in a few years but I hope not because I don't it hurts it hurts when it's in
it's too stabby I I hate it as much as I hate your chin hair um and like this is another one of those things that I I hope that folks don't think that because I hate your chin hair that I don't also love the gender euphoria it brings you. Does that make sense?
MattieYeah.
AlexAnd I also don't want anybody to think that if you are queer and like both AMAB and AFAB folks, like I don't, I get really upset about the stress around hair, especially because it can be such a source of joy for so many people. like hair youtube and like whatever um i don't know try try to try to find some sort of joy in your hair or lack of hair like shaving my head was fucking awesome the quarantine quarantine hair
shave the quarantine cut was man i i think i'm going to shave my head every summer summer now like it's wonderful and it has pretty much all grown back or at least we're getting pretty close
Mattiei i agree i i want people to be happy with their body hair or lack thereof and enjoy especially during quarantine when i feel like society and people maybe care a little less because you're you know sheltered i i want people to have healthier and happier relationships with their with their body hair so that's that's what i hope for everybody honestly a lot of people right
Alexnow are coming out of quarantine and you're like well i missed my opportunity to experiment with hair no no no like you can you can find ways the only reason that it sort of happened in quarantine for a lot of people is because they didn't have a choice yeah yeah uh if like you know maybe do what i did like have secret leg hair i don't know it wasn't that i was hiding it it's just that I was wearing pants all the time because winter in Chicago same reason I shaved my head
because it's really hot in Chicago uh and I often wonder if I would if I would have a different relationship with my hair in a place that didn't have seasons yeah that's how many factors there are when it comes to hair it's wild I agree I agree anyway I just hope that I don't have nightmares about my hair growing back anymore.
MattieOr your leg hair growing so long that it like turns into vines.
AlexGod, I never had that dream before.
MattieYou're welcome.
AlexOh, thank you.
MattieThank you for listening to this episode of Two Headed Girl. If you like what you heard, head on over to our Patreon at Two-HeadedGirlFM or subscribe wherever you find your podcasts. Black Lives Matter. In the show notes, we've listed some of our favorite podcasts hosted by queer BIPOC creators. Take care of yourselves and wear a damn mask.