7. Gender is a Young Man’s Game
2020Show notes
Support the show on Patreon if you can!
Mattie starts to talk about his favorite movie, but then stuff gets a little too real with Alex and gender politics.
Normally, this would be a part of our bonus show, Opposite Sides of the Couch, but we decided to put this in the main show feed since we started to get into topics that are traditionally a part of the show.
We talk about Frozen II; you’ll probably still like this episode even if you hate the movie.
Show Notes
Frozen II
Frozen Podcast
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesMattieHi, I'm Mattie Cox, and this is Two Headed Girl, a show that's usually about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. But this week, we wanted to give you a taste of the exclusive bonus show you're able to hear if you support us on Patreon. We call it Opposite Sides of the Couch, where we discuss queer media. If you like what you hear, check us out at patreon.com slash twoheadedgirlfm. This week, we get overly emotional about Frozen and Frozen 2. Be warned, there are spoilers and tears.
Alexyou know how i am very very much into being spoiler free going into any movie yeah i mean like intensely intensely like i put uh i i mute any word on twitter that might have anything to do with the movie like you don't watch the trailers I don't watch trailers it's I get a
little intense I did the yeah just just a little it's normal it's fine um and I accidentally did this with the first Frozen and not because I necessarily was like man I don't want to go see it because I I'm a huge huge Disney fan it just so happened that there wasn't a huge amount of press beforehand. Well, they didn't know it was going to be. They did not know what they were getting themselves into.
MattieI want to apologize in advance for getting Let It Go stuck in everyone's heads. Oh, boy. I'm just throwing that out there. Yep.
AlexWelcome to 2017.
MattieOh, no. It was made six years
Alexago. Wait, what? Yeah, the first
MattieFrozen came out six years ago, so 2014 was where you heard Let It Go everywhere like that Christmas and especially after that Halloween when all the little girls
Alexdressed as Elsa so uh welcome to 2014 I remember though exactly where I was it was the small theater that is near my house where I grew up and we went to see it on a whim after Thanksgiving because it's like, oh, of course you're going to go see a Disney movie if you're in my family. And it was between that and something else I don't even remember. Maybe it was Batman.
I think it might have been Batman.
MattieDear God, thank God you picked Frozen.
AlexNo, no, no, but a good Batman. I don't know. I just remember I saw that instead of the big blockbuster that was opening. so I didn't even know that Frozen had a musical element to it whatsoever wait really I had no idea uh so when it starts off in with a song fairly early on I was I did like a double take and I guess I I don't know like there was Tangled but there's only like two songs in Tangled though
Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, is this just one of the token songs or like what's going on? And to be fair, actually, Frozen only has like a few songs. But in retrospect, I really don't know why I was so uninterested. did everything about it i mean speaks to my nerdery it is about winter it had kristen bell
and idina menzel and jonathan groff who uh not nobody knew who he was but at the time uh not as many people knew who he was and I was all for that but this movie starts and I was blown away I love I love Frozen I think it is a wonderful movie it is great I mean not like I have it
Mattietattooed on my arm or anything I'm not like super big a fan it just to me let it go was a representation of just obviously to everyone like like not giving a fuck about the things that have held you back and just embracing yourself but also to me it really just felt like a song about coming out and being queer and being loud and proud and rainbows and all of the icicles and the ice palace to me represented wearing rainbows and pride and like it it just I know you got something different
from it which is also 100 valid but to me it was it was about embracing not just being gay or coming out but like embracing all the weird things about yourself and just like I don't care what they're
Alexgonna say you know when I saw it for the first time it put me in such a strange place because here I am I think I'm going to go enjoy a nice family film I mean it's Disney so of course the parents well at least one of the parents will be dead uh but I wasn't expecting a ton of emotion and it's it's not just the lyrics it's the way that Idina Menzel who if folks don't know uh is
MattiePlease tell me you know who she is. Please. Please, everybody.
AlexIdina Menzel is a Broadway legend and not just because of Frozen or because she did some cameos on Glee. She was she started her her like breakout, I guess, hit. Her breakout performance was the she was the original Maureen in Rent. And then she was also the original Elphaba. And I mean, she's just out of this world.
MattieAdele Dazeem, everybody.
AlexOh, remember that?
MattieOh, I do. So tell me how Let It Go made you feel because you interpreted it in a much different way.
AlexNot so much in a different way. It just hit home in terms of, I mean, it was the same feeling you had. I just equated it more with mental illness, I guess, or rather the shame I was carrying around in terms of being bipolar. And if anybody knew that or if it was something, you know, that that was like a brandished on my branded on my forehead or something, you know.
MattieDo you want to elaborate like how exactly what parts of the song and like how it how it made you feel about your mental illness? Did it empower you?
AlexYeah, I mean, of course. Like just I guess this isn't, you know, like obviously the famous lyric, but just the here I stand in the light of day. And like, yeah, it's it's the same thing as being out and proud in the queer sense. It's just, you know, being yourself. I know you saw and a lot of people saw Elsa's magical ice powers as coded queerness. And I also think it can be coded mental.
It can be coded anything taboo or anything that people look down upon.
MattieOr makes you different that like marginalizes you.
AlexYeah.
MattieShow Yourself is definitely, for us anyway, and I think it should be, is the Let It Go of Frozen 2. Not Into the Unknown, which is funny because I thought they thought that would be the one and they pushed it way more. But now Disney's like, oh, show yourself is better. You're right. Oh, crap.
AlexAnd not a better song in terms of, I think it just hits you the way that Let It Go did. or rather it feels like the sequel to let it go right it evokes the same emotions whereas into
Mattiethe unknown is kind of i don't want to say the typical disney princess i want song but it kind of is whereas show yourself is so much more complex yeah i mean into the unknown is a
Alexstill a powerful song like it's a it's a call to action song it's it's really i love it i adore it it still made me cry. I was not expecting to even like Frozen 2. I intentionally went on full media blackout because I'm like, I don't even want to see the merchandise. I don't want to know anything about this.
And Let It Go was empowering. But the context of Show Yourself is Elsa has gone off looking for this siren song, if you will, and she's trying to find... I'm putting this as if everybody has seen the movie. You should all see this movie. But basically, she's in this magical ice cave looking for something. And the first lyrics, or I'm sorry, the first verse is...
Every inch of me is trembling, but not from the cold. Something is familiar, like a dream I can reach but not quite hold.
I can see you there, like a friend I've always known. I'm arriving, and it feels like I am home.
Speaker BI have always been a fortress, cold secrets deep inside. You have secrets too
AlexBut you don't have to hide Can you just read the chorus for me?
MattieShow yourself I'm dying to meet you Show yourself It's your turn Are you the one I've been looking for all of my life?
Show yourself. I'm ready to learn. Say what does the first verse evoke from you? Because I know this whole song is very powerful for you, but the first, a different part is what affects me.
Alexso I'd like to know. Oh I mean this is this is just the start. Yeah yeah I know. I mean spoilers for the end of the song is that she's showing herself and realizing that she is the person
Mattiethat she has been looking for. Up until then the plot of the movie has you believe that she's looking for another person someone with powers like hers and it's at that moment that you realize because oh no the person she was looking for was herself she needed to find what was inside of her
Alexall along and the thing that really got me when it's show yourself I'm dying to meet you show yourself it's your turn are you the one I've been looking for all of my life show yourself I'm ready to learn I've never felt so certain all my life I've been torn but I'm here for a reason could it be the reason I was born. I've always been so different. Normal rules did not apply.
MattieThose are the two, sorry, those are the two lines I wanted to talk about. You can keep reading, but.
AlexYeah, I was always been so different. Normal rules did not apply. Is this the day? Are you the way? I finally find out why and it's it's the way she is trying she's recognizing that she is different as in the last movie it's like yes I am different I'm me I cannot change who I am this is her being like listen I know there's a reason for all of this I need to I someone needs to tell me what
to do and who I am and what I am. It's like, there are all of these things about myself that I don't want to say I hate, but I question, like you questioned all of those jumbles and all of those puzzle pieces. And she is trying to put together these puzzle pieces about herself. And so all of that is swirling around in my head as this is happening. And can you talk about like the plot of how the song turns, basically.
MattieElsa thinks she's been looking for another person, and she steps into this ice cave, and she sees flashes of memories, and specifically a picture of her mom, who is dead. So obviously this is through magic. Like, it's not actually happening. It is a Disney movie. But Elsa ends up singing a duet with her mom, and her mother basically tells her you're the one that you've been looking for all of your life
Alexand you don't need to find anyone who is like you because there isn't and that's okay that's
Mattienot a bad thing and then for me the most powerful line is when Elsa says I am found because she I feel like in that moment completely accepts herself and is like I am found I know who I am and I'm going to embrace it and Alex is having some emotions on this podcast
Alexnever
Speaker Ashow yourself step into the power grow yourself into something You are the one you've been waiting for All of my life All of your life All of your life
MattieSo I know Let It Go For You was more about mental illness. Does this song, because it relates so much to you now, is it more about gender exploration and gender identity than it is about mental illness? Like, what specifically does this to show yourself bring up in you that Let It Go didn't? Because you said it feels like a continuation, not just for the movie, but for me personally, it feels like an emotional continuation, like almost emotional closure.
AlexIt's yeah, it's like an evolution of myself from, you know, the past five years. And yeah, this song is so much more complex than, I don't know. Like, it's hard to talk about it without the context of seeing what's going on. But also, it stands on its own as such a strong ballad. I don't know. With Let It Go, she was forced to let everything go.
The reason she is like cast out from the castle or rather the reason she thinks she'll be cast out of her family and society is because she has the, you know, magic ice power thing.
MattieIf you haven't seen the first Frozen, you've been living under a rock. So hopefully we don't have to explain too much of this to you.
AlexRight. But that was, but I think the context is important that that wasn't her choice. It was just something that happened to her.
Mattiewell she she chose i'm gonna argue that she did choose to let it all out because she could have gone into hiding but what she did is she transformed and embraced herself and made this giant ass castle like look at my power look at who i am i'm not gonna hide it like she didn't have the choice to show the people of her kingdom but she made the choice to instead of go hide somewhere she like clearly visibly was like this is my power absolutely um but with but with this
Alexso like the whole movie actually frozen 2 is uh about her taking agency over all of her actions because the song into the unknown is about how she is she wants to go searching for this other person and yes it turns out to be herself but she feels obligated to stay you know as the queen of
Arendelle and she and you know with her family who she loves very much but there's just something that she feels is off and wants to go figure stuff out and that is the big big difference for me in terms of show yourself because she she finds herself but it is everything that leads her to that cave and that moment of self-realization she made those choices does
that make sense like yeah she made choices that people like they're like oh god don't go into the don't go into the ice cave alone like oh why are you going into the enchanted haunted forest uh-oh like I and it's it's kind of you know I like I said I'm 29 and it feels like gender has always been a complex thing for me and it felt easy after I started dating you and then I found oh you're my
person I didn't need to I felt like I don't need to worry about this anymore I just don't need to think about any of this because I'm in my queer castle and I don't need to explore anything further because, you know, I'm, I have, like Elsa says in Into the Unknown, like, I've had my adventure. Like, it's, be like, I'm done.
I shouldn't be, like, gender's a young man's game.
MattieBecause you felt safe and accepted in your giant queer weirdness castle. You didn't feel like you, even though there was more in you, you didn't feel like you had to keep exploring it.
AlexIt's not even, it felt like, why would I, why would I leave a good thing? Why would I poke a sleeping bear?
MattieThat's how I felt about coming out to you.
Alexyeah coming out as trans so i understand i just i know you do and that's the other like happy crying part of that is like i just need i'm still in i'm getting to the like i'm ready to learn part of the song but not quite there myself does that you're at the ready to learn about yourself but i
Mattiefeel like you're you're not quite at the I am found but you want to be I feel like the reason you keep saying I'm 29 in this song because we have this arbitrary thing in our society where we think we should be at a certain point of our lives at a certain time like you graduate college you get your job you move in with your significant other you get married you have kids like that's
Alexjust what society has like slammed into us i mean obviously and and we've done minus minus the kids like we've we've done all of those things but even within the queer community it's like stop i mean we've seen this with uh by erasure as well and i it's kind of like i'm too old to be stirring the pot because in terms of that's some bullshit yeah i know it is i know it is
but and the reason i keep saying oh i'm 29 is because if this were 20 or 30 years ago it's very unlikely that either of us would still be alive we would have or be happy oh not just Definitely not happy. Probably dead.
Like the lifespan of trans women of color right now is still so, so young.
MattieThat's a whole different.
AlexI mean, and that's the thing is we're, there are so many stories and so much important queer culture that we've missed out on because the quote elders only got to live to their early 30s, whether they were taken by AIDS or violence or something. And now, like, as this AFAB person, it feels also unfair that I get to sit here and explore my gender, which I obviously always have been doing the whole time.
But to be able to do it publicly and safely is a whole other thing where...
MattieFeels like too much privilege.
Alexprivilege. I feel like what makes me why why do I get to do this and also why aren't there just
Mattiealready more people like this and yeah. Society makes it hard and there are more people like this but I think I think we're on the cusp like our age late millennials I think we're on the cusp of we weren't given that chance to explore as much when we were younger. So especially when it comes to queer stuff, we're, we're still in this, like, this youth stage, like there was so much we didn't
get to experience in high school that we wish we could have embraced because of the bullying and the stigma and like it was just hard enough being gay so i i think like we are the elders now and that's hard because we haven't gotten to have as much because we don't know exploration yeah yeah and and that's totally that's completely valid i i completely understand where you're coming from and i think show yourself is so powerful but also i feel like harder for you is because
because you want to be at that part where you're like, I am found, but you are still on that path of I am learning. Whereas for me, the I am found part, it really hits home because I'm like, I've been out and I am trans and I embrace myself and I am confident and I get to be who I am in a community of friends who accept me and my family accepts me and the world knows and sees me for who I am and I've been going on specifically my transition journey for three years and your
deep dive into gender exploration has just started in like the past year so I mean that's the problem
Alexthough not really I think history is at a point now where it's finally acceptable to be a non-binary person and hopefully I mean this is my fear I never want to take up space where but you're allowed to I we have this but not this fight we have I know I'm just you're allowed to it just feels like it feels like I'm just too old to keep doing this why does it matter what I am I know I
MattieI know and I know you're right and I know I just want to argue with you so hard about this but I I know. I want you to be able to get out your feelings, but I just mini pep talk. You can discover yourself and become who you are and embrace yourself.
There's that stigma is so awful and it's still so pervasive where it's like, oh, you should have known as a kid. Like and you did, but you didn't like.
AlexThere weren't words.
MattieI know. Exactly. But like people transition in their 40s and 50s and like it's never too late to find yourself and be happy and make space for yourself. And I know I can't make you accept that, but I want you to know that that's an option. And dear Lord, Frozen brought up a lot of feels in us.
AlexYeah. Yeah.
MattieBut in a great way.
AlexI hope that the creators know.
MattieOh, they know.
AlexYeah, like they know. Well, I haven't, again, I haven't revisited a lot of the stuff. I haven't, you know, normally I go back and look at all the press junket stuff and look at the trailers and everything. But it's still really raw.
MattieThere's a couple, there's an official Frozen 2 podcast. There's this one specific episode about the music and the creators of the music. Let me find it. Because that one, if you want to see why and how much we're relating to the music, that one is really important. Oh, it's the first episode called Into the Unknown. So not the trailer, but it's Inside Frozen 2. And it's where the lyricists, the people who write the songs, Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez,
they talk about the audio and like the meanings behind it and stuff and all the songs. And that one, if you want to get a bigger sense of what we're talking about and the emotions they meant to invoke and definitely understand that they invoked in people and obviously not just children, but adults, because that's a really good one to understand where we're coming from.
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AlexOh, I'm gonna cry. Oh, so good!
Speaker AStep into your power, bitch! Yes!