6. Auntie J is a Blabbermouth
2019Show notes
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Mattie and Alex offer up some of their experiences with the good and the bad of being queer during the holiday season.
Show Notes
Your Holiday Mom
The Trevor Project
glaad
CHICAGO: Center on Halstead
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesAlexHi, I'm Alex Cox. And I'm Mattie Cox. This is a queer podcast about gender, our minds, and all sorts of transitions. Welcome to Two Headed Girl. You brought to me the idea of doing a holiday episode.
And at first I was hesitant only because everyone kind of does a, the holidays can really suck for queer people. But then you won me over because I think you have a lot of concrete advice to share with especially the youths out there who are either coming out to their family for the first time or bringing home a partner for the first time.
MattieJust stuff that I hadn't even, I haven't thought about in so long because we've been together so long. Yeah, but we've also experienced like all those milestones together and all of them around the holidays, like originating around the holidays. So that's been, I think that's why I wanted to make this episode.
AlexWe kind of have two different audiences in this show, which I love. We have a cis audience and a trans and queer audience.
MattieSo what we're going to do is talk about what happened to us during holiday parties and gatherings, and then give advice on how the cis person could have made it better. Like how I wish the cis person in that situation would have responded.
AlexAnd we can talk about how you would respond differently now in hindsight if you feel like you have grown from the experiences.
MattieOh, definitely.
AlexYou go to a lot of holiday functions as a child, as a spouse, as a co-worker. What happens to you when someone misgenders you?
Mattiewhat's your first response I think I need to take it in stages because my first response when I first came out as trans it was Thanksgiving three years ago and we uh were with your family and they already knew and they were already great about it and they apologized and like they were super accepting so I didn't really have a response because they what do you mean by they apologized Oh, like if they messed up my name or pronouns, they would apologize and correct themselves right away.
AlexAnd how did they do that? Do you think they did it in a good way or an awkward way?
MattieI think they did it great because they didn't do it around everyone else. They did it when we were just talking one-on-one. So like when we were in a circle opening presents with everyone, if they slipped up, they didn't do it in front of the whole group of people. They would just do it when we were talking one-on-one. and that made me feel much more comfortable.
AlexI didn't know that they did that. Good job, mom and dad and family. My biggest thing is usually when people ask me, I'm like, don't make it like a TED Talk. You don't need to sit down and be like, this is why I messed up your pronouns and your name, and here is why I won't do it again. Just play it cool.
MattieYeah, it doesn't need to be a big thing. Just apologize and move on. and do better. That's the main thing I'm trying to say is, cis people, if someone has just come out or you're just seeing them for the first time around the holidays, because that's usually when we see our family the most, don't make a big deal out of it, especially in a room full of people. And if you have questions, take the person aside and ask. Like, don't do it in front of a group full of people. That is just the worst thing you can do,
especially if that person doesn't want to be out to everyone in the family. Like maybe they don't feel safe to be, but they trust you enough to be out to you. Ask them. Don't just assume.
AlexAnd it doesn't need to be a big, you know, like a secret sleuth spy mission. I think we put a lot of emphasis on privacy and respect, but it's easy to just be like you know pull someone aside and be like hey does this person know you're out what pronoun should i be using kind of how you'd be like hey do you want uh ice in this drink like it doesn't need to be this big i need to talk to you on the back porch
Mattiein oh 600 hours right don't create more anxiety than there needs to be basically
Alexwhat advice do you have to the youths who are just coming out or maybe this is the first time they've interacted with their family after coming out because it's the holidays and it's when we see
Mattieeach other yeah so i have a lot of advice with this but not exactly like experience i've done research but considering I came out well I came out as gay at 17 and experienced that part of my life for the first time at another holiday event let's go let's go what was it like it was my family was not educated on queer theory I was 19 I was just home from college they made a bunch
of offensive jokes like they asked me how could you be gay now that you you've dated you know men all throughout high school why did you make this decision like it was the worst so I am an only child I don't like to upset my family I have a problem with that like I've discussed it in therapy but I kind of just avoided it and shrugged it off instead of being confrontational and I would handle that situation 100% differently now, but it was really, really rough.
AlexI believe in never punching down, but my family is, it's basically an entire punching down on, like we're all smashing down on one another. And I think there's going to be people listening to this in, in like, that is how their family interacts. And it can be an awkward line to balance growing up you know uh the the mid-aughts my brothers and I would constantly call each other and everything gay gay gay gay gay like we would always call everything gay and so when I came out
as gay they were I mean they're still uncomfortable about it but like they're uncomfortable around cis women like they're dumb boys it's everything that they that isn't Fortnite and Halo makes them uncomfortable so they still make a lot of gay jokes but the kind of way that now as millennials and gen z-ers call things gay in a endearing way which i don't think they do anymore actually
Mattiethey oh they do but you mean like gay seal like happy about the gay like oh celebrating the gay
Alexyeah like when you and i hug they're like oh gay uh and i mean oh that's cute yeah and that can be really hard though when you're first coming out I think it made me really uncomfortable when I had you know what I mean like they just kept pointing out like hey hey there's there's a gay couple in this Christmas movie I that's a bad example because I don't know Christmas movie
Mattiewith a gay couple I just I think you have to read the room and the situation from my personal experience you have to make allowances for certain family members to get on the same page kind of like sometimes you just ignore your racist uncle or whatever because you see them once a year and you just like live with it so you have to read the room and see if you feel safe or if do you want to make that confrontation or because you see them once a year do you just want to like ignore them and not respond or interact with them because they're being insensitive
AlexMm hmm. Because there are times where I have had that confrontation with people in my family, but it was because one, I was safe to I was sticking up for my partner. And, you know, I felt that there was something good that could come of this conversation. I avoid stuff with, you know, the homophobic uncle every year because he's not interacting with any queer people.
He and it's not that I feel unsafe, but it's emotionally exhausting. why should I or you if you're listening to this put so much emotional energy in trying to educate a mean old man who is not going to change and who is going to make your holiday shitty if you try to be like so Judith Butler you know what I mean if there are those like crappy family members
Mattiesee if there's any allies in your family especially if it's the first time you're with them since you've come out my advice to the to the youths or even anyone that's just come out like if you know you know auntie jay or whatever is really liberal like feel it out approach that person about queer topics and then if you're like oh i feel safe in this situation then it might be okay to come out but if auntie jay is a blabber mouth then maybe don't do that you know so i feel
like it's about finding those allies especially if you have younger siblings younger cousins like those people it's probably going to be safer to talk about queer issues or come out around because they've probably got a either a queer person they know or like have been around queer
Alexpeople. Speaking of family parties in general, dressing up was always a huge source of anxiety for me, especially for Christmas and Easter when you need to wear a dress to church because of course you do. I'm a proper young lady. Of course I must wear a dress. And that was always a huge point of contention and I just went with it like I was like okay fuck this I'll do it fine
whereas now you know I'm going as a 29 year old I'm like no mom not gonna do it no no not happening I'm gonna wear jeans and my sweater from old navy well I'm gonna deal with it I do I do try to dress up, but not, you know, I'm not going to femme myself for baby Jesus. Like it's not worth it. It's not worth my own stress and anxiety. And I'm close enough and lucky enough that by making that
decision, my family is not going to disown me or give me any good crap. Well, no, of course they're going to give me my mom's going to give me crap but she gives me crap for swearing if we swear on this podcast she gets herself in a tizzy so you know it's all about the safety you feel but so for you what did you do before you were out as trans but you your family knew that you were a
you know quote tomboy you didn't like dresses how did you navigate that when you were younger
MattieI started just changing my wardrobe myself so I actually think it started with um we used to have I was in orchestra we used to have Christmas concerts and I would be in middle school you had to wear a skirt you had to wear a long skirt you had to wear like a blouse and then the dress code changed this was oh god back in 2004 so in 2004 they were like oh girls can wear pants now it took that long oh my god yeah and i then i chose to wear pants and all my friends around
me when we were 14 15 were like oh let's wear we can wear ties now to this concert let's not
Alexwear cummerbunds let's wear ties and i think that felt wait oh do i not know what a cummerbund is
Mattiea cummerbund's like a little like a little sash like a little belt that you have to wear around and under your like your jacket for orchestra. Look it up. You'll you'll see what it is. So girls had to wear that. Cumberbuns. With a skirt? With a skirt with a blouse. Oh god clothes are weird. Yeah um so when the dress code changed my friends and I were all like yeah let's let's wear ties and pants and that's when I realized like I can embrace whatever I want to
wear and of course my grandparents made comments about it like oh look at that person in the you look like my grandson now and not my granddaughter like why are you wearing pants you're supposed to dress up and I think from then on I was like I'm you know I'm 14 I dress myself I can wear what I want and then to family functions I started started wearing pants and I would still like wear a blouse or something but from then on for family even family pictures in my grandpa's I was looking at
his card for his 80th birthday which is uh which was a couple well his birthday was a couple days ago and I was looking at it and I wore pants I wore pants because I wanted to so I think that was a pivotal moment in my life where I was like I can dress up how I want for big events and no matter what they say, like, it's not going to affect me because I have agency over my own body. And I realize a lot of people can't do that, especially like trans youths, like they're just expected to
wear dresses and it's awful and it makes you feel so depressed. I got the best advice ever from my gender therapist, actually, if you're expected to dress a certain way, so let's say you're a trans mask and you're you know 10 12 and you're expected you're you know even a teenager expected to wear a dress the way to do it is I've heard um like pretending like you're an actor and you're acting in a play like pick your favorite like female character from a show or something and or even
wear one piece of clothing that's like opposite gender so maybe wear a watch that's a little more masculine or pick a color for your outfit that's a little more masculine. Wear docks with your dress if you can. Like any little thing and then focus on that tiny thing that can make you feel gender affirmed because sometimes a little thing is all it takes to make it better, you know?
AlexAbsolutely. I'm constantly questioning my own gender and I'm always like, I don't know. But Before coming out to my family, I would always wear more traditionally masculine clothing. And I think that was kind of why they knew I was gay before I did. Because that was, you know, just some like some tiny signals of, yeah, wow, Alex really is just always going to wear pants, huh?
oh, oh, I guess Alex is over in the boys section again. All right, sure. And a lot of times I could say like, oh, it's because I like the Pokemon shirts more, the Star Wars shirts more. Remember everybody in the mid 90s and mid thousands, mid aughts, whatever we're calling them now. So it was there was nothing like that over in the pink area, which is, I think, a good place to transition into gift giving and receiving.
MattieOh, man. Yeah. Grandmas, aunts, they all like giving you those dresses, pink, fluffy sweaters, makeup kits from Walgreens, what have you. even when I was like an early teen and I had just come out um a late teen and had just come out like I was like oh thanks and then I would be like afterwards hey mom do you want this um but also I would if I got gendered gifts that I didn't want I would either give them to
my mom or like a female cousin or I would ask my mom if we could go to the store and exchange them And I would like take my makeup kit and then get a video game, you know.
AlexDid that clue her in to anything you think about your preferences in expressing your gender?
MattieI don't know if at the time because of how I was raised. I don't think so. And also I just never really liked makeup. But like gender clothing, especially bright colors. I was never into like bright pink, bright yellow, stuff like that. I've always liked like red, dark greens, blues, like more dark and neutral colors. So I think my mom would just see it as like, oh, yeah, that's not your style. So that's totally fine. And I think exchanging gifts is a really good way if you're not out or you're stuck with all the gendered gifts.
You know what I mean? Like because you don't have to be stuck to them or trade. Do you got a brother who knows you're out or got something cool? Be like, hey, do you want this? I don't know.
AlexI hate to say it, but you've really got to become an expert in faking enthusiasm for gifts that— And I don't—
MattieOh, hell yeah.
AlexYeah. It's not that you're not grateful. It's not that you're like, I wish I had this in blue. like the trans and queer kids who are listening to this get what I'm saying like you you're going to get gifts sometimes that honestly can trigger dysphoria and it sucks and sometimes you know I hate to say like sometimes you just need to bottle it up and be like oh my god grandma thank you But I did that for years and years because I was not ready to talk about any of that.
And it's kind of I realize it's sort of like what you did with your mom. The way that I presented myself, that kind of clued my mom in on what I liked. And then it kind of would permeate through the family when my aunts and uncles would ask, what does Alex want for Christmas? It was easy for her to be like, no dresses, no dresses, no makeup, nothing pink. And we're making blanket statements here.
But I think it is OK to lie about how much you like something.
MattieAnd for the cis people listening, like if you have a queer youth in your life and they're not out or you don't know, ask them, preferably not in a room of people, maybe text them. Or if they say they just want gift cards, please just give them gift cards. Like there are those family members that are like, no, I want to get you a physical thing. My family. But like if this person, especially if they're not out to everyone, if they can't advocate for themselves, if there is a queer person in your life at all, not just necessarily a youth, and they're like, please just get me a gift card to this place.
First of all, don't question it. If it's to like, let's say it's a 10-year-old boy and he wants a gift card to Claire's, do it. Just like say, okay. It's just or give them money. Like sometimes my grandparents just put a 15 hour bell in my card and they're like, here, use it on groceries or something. And then you could use it on anything. You don't have to think about it so hard. Like there's not a reason to think about it so hard.
AlexThere's other things in the world than clothes and makeup. This is a capitalist society. Like this hellscape we've created, it means that there's so many things you can buy for people. Gift cards and the color green are such a gift.
MattieExactly. Starbucks. My one family has no idea what I like. I'm not out to them. And they just, what do you want? Starbucks gift card. Yes. Here's Starbucks for the next six months.
AlexYes. Do something like that. Lots of people like food. And some people have come up to me and asked, I think my nephew is gay. What should I do? I'm like, just get him a gift card to Target. Like, it's not.
MattieRight. You don't have to buy them a Barbie or something. Like, just because a family member has come out as gay or trans or queer doesn't mean their personality has changed. Like, my mom said this to me. I, okay, I have a Frozen tattoo. I am in love with Frozen. And my mom was like, I want to buy you all these Frozen 2 things, but they're so feminine. And I was like, well, do you want ideas or do you just want to buy me Frozen things? And if I don't like them, I can exchange them.
I was like, I don't see Frozen as gendered.
AlexI was actually thinking about this morning how my mom's like, so Santa's looking at this Star Wars website. and you know would you and Mattie potentially like any of these shoes and so uh I sent her our sizes in both men and women's sizes because that's how shoes work and she was like is it okay that the shoes I'm getting Matt if I buy them in the women's sizes they're the exact same shoe
it's just if it's in women's sizes it's a lot cheaper and I'm like yeah also I have small
Mattiefeet when it comes to men's sizes. Not really. They're like average. But I thought it was very
Alexsweet of my mom to ask. Like that's a polite question to ask because maybe on the label, it's going to be like women's what I don't know. I don't know what Santa is getting for us in terms of our Star Wars shoes, but it could be like women's Star Wars shoes. So I think that was a considerate question because she assumed that you probably wouldn't care but it wasn't like a then she had she questioned it i thought that was a nice question um but also we are talking about
Mattiei think you've mentioned we've generalized how everything is very gendered in our capitalist society obviously you know clothes don't have to be gendered shoes especially but but unfortunately they are in our society. It's this is the women's side. This is the men's side. There is no non-binary side. And it's all about who you are and your style and what you like. And that doesn't sometimes it does change drastically when you come out. And sometimes it doesn't. And it's just about
getting your family to having them be able to read that or know that or if you don't want them to
Alexasking for a gift card. Oh, hey, and in terms of labeling gifts, what do you, what have you done when your birth name is on a package or, you know, if somebody gets a package with their birth name
Mattieor dead name on it? I honestly didn't have to experience it. I was so lucky after I came out and the first Christmas I was out, I wasn't out to any of my family, but the next Christmas I was and literally every present said Matt on it and every card I've gotten since then and I teared up like it was amazing and it's got to be so hard like I can't imagine and again I feel like it's it's that thing where it's gonna bring dysphoria and negative feelings and unfortunately sometimes
it's unavoidable if you feel safe and mentioning it to someone like anyone and maybe they could spread it around the family like a nickname like you don't have to say hey this is my new name you could say this is a nickname I want you to call me could you write it on my cards and my gifts you don't have to make it a big deal again you can make it a subtle thing and if your family is like
Alexmine and you give each other a lot of shit you can always be cheeky and be like hmm Melissa who's that I actually remember uh the first Christmas morning that you were with us together it was the first after we were married and all of the kids and the spouses we were all together Christmas morning my mom had bought gifts in September before you were out and had them wrapped in label and she looked at it and she was like wait wait hold on and then Dave Dave give me the sharpie
give me the sharpie because she had because the majority of the gifts said Matthew but there was like two that still said Melissa because you know as a suburban mom you know Christmas is a full-time job throughout the year so I just thought that was really cute yeah it was I'm
Mattievery lucky in that I have two sides of family that are very supportive and obviously we are
Alextalking about Christmas because we're two Catholics who grew up and we have like six different Christmas parties to go to every year but you know whatever holiday bullshit that you're into we I love our Christmas bullshit but you know this yeah this is advice for all holiday gatherings
Mattiewe haven't talked about subtle cues for being in like not just family parties but at like let's say a new year's eve party or friends giving or a work or friend Christmas party where you might be newly out or maybe not out at all, but you want to be more comfortable or more yourself in these settings, there are great pins with pronouns on them or even just ask me about my pronouns. And there's like small, subtle ones. They make like really classy ones,
like fancy ones that you could wear on your nice holiday clothes.
AlexWhen you say classy or quote nice, you mean, I think, traditionally fancy, right?
MattieLike $3 enamel pins that are like black and silver on Etsy. Yes.
AlexYeah. Like we're not talking about, you know, incredibly fancy lapel pins that where do you buy lapel pins?
MattieI mean, you can get those too, though.
AlexYeah. Yeah. If you if you want to go all out on a pronoun lapel pin, you do you. but it's not like you're going to break the bank if you want a subtle little what would you go this
Mattiejust a subtle either a subtle reminder or just to like hey this would be a nice thing that you
Alexcould do for me that's a good gift for somebody actually you might want to run it by their partner or one of their friends but a little pronoun doodad would be a good gift yeah i uh
MattieI think I got you that as a gift last year.
AlexOh, yeah, you did. What do you do now with your family when they are just, let's say, forgetful, but really they're just suppressing the fact that you're trans and they continue to misname or deadname you?
MattieTwo of my favorite responses that I have now are, I don't respond if they say the wrong name. That's very good. Or my favorite because it's also passive aggressive. is I just say who until they correct themselves. But I think it depends on how confrontational you want to be. Advice that I've learned is you shouldn't let your family make you feel bad or walk all over you. Like there's no reason to go through that. Especially if they know, I think giving them that little push or reminding them isn't a bad idea.
Because they're just going to keep making you feel crappy if you don't say anything.
AlexAnd if you're an adult and you have the financial freedom to not have to rely on anybody, you don't need to go to these parties. You have no obligation to make people feel better about your own gender. We promise you are going to get through this holiday season. It might suck, but it's going to be okay. We promise.
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